Seneca Rocks Accident 8/5

There is almost zero chance that the rope end carabiner was resting in the exact same spot where it was when the rope broke. When you break ropes (something I have done a lot of) with that loud Pop that was described comes a lot of motion. Everything whipps all over the place. 

Samuel Puckettwrote:

I may be misremembering and dont want to speculate on anything here but wasnt there another incident at seneca years back that was caused by this exactly?

https://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201009600/Fall-on-Rock-Severed-Rope-Placed-No-or-Inadequate-Protection-No-Hard-Hat-West-Virginia-Seneca-Rocks-La-Bella-Vista

this?

I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around this whole situation of the alpine on a slab surface causing the pinched rope. If I'm reading this right then wouldn't we see a much larger number of these accidents happening? I feel like the majority of crags I end up at have climbs with less than vertical slabs. I'm just having a really hard time visualizing this specific scenario without context of the actual set up of the pieces and climb itself. I know we are all trying to look for the smoking gun in this situation, it's just hard to imagine something that a good amount of us do almost every time we are out would have caused this. 

Danny was an incredibly nice guy and was always willing to give me a catch when my partner didn't show up at the gym. Thoughts are with his family and everyone who aided in this situation. 

As a “foreign” climber who has only relatively recently been climbing in the US, one thing that strikes me in the discussion so far on this terribly tragic accident, is that there has been no mention about the use of a single rope in this case.  

The accident report describes this as a “freak” accident and there has been lots of discussion on the technicalities of how the rope severed. Yet severed ropes are relatively common in climbing, especially trad climbing, for all kinds of reasons. Indeed this thread mentions several other examples including a previous case at Seneca.

In most other countries outside the US, single rope climbing is not the norm in multi-pitch trad climbing for precisely this reason.  Indeed it is standard practice, especially for non-elite climbers, to practice double rope climbing.  Unfortunately it would seem that double rope climbing went out of fashion for trad climbing in the US many years ago with the rise of sport climbing and as climbers began to emulate elite climbers out west who were moving to single ropes for speed.  

See this very informative article on the history of this and best practices around double rope climbing by Andy Kirkpatrick here:

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/the-problem-with-skinny-singles

From the facts of this case, it seems clear that a second rope using the double rope technique would have saved this poor climbers life because even if it hadn’t been clipped at all, a second rope connected to the belayer would have prevented him falling the full 40m / 130 feet from above the third pitch.  

Is this tragic accident not a call for us to return to the safe practice of using a double rope for non-elite multi-pitch trad climbing?

Allan Wilsonwrote:

As a “foreign” climber who has only relatively recently been climbing in the US, one thing that strikes me in the discussion so far on this terribly tragic accident, is that there has been no mention about the use of a single rope in this case.  

The accident report describes this as a “freak” accident and there has been lots of discussion on the technicalities of how the rope severed. Yet severed ropes are relatively common in climbing, especially trad climbing, for all kinds of reasons. Indeed this thread mentions several other examples including a previous case at Seneca.

In most other countries outside the US, single rope climbing is not the norm in multi-pitch trad climbing for precisely this reason.  Indeed it is standard practice, especially for non-elite climbers, to practice double rope climbing.  Unfortunately it would seem that double rope climbing went out of fashion for trad climbing in the US many years ago with the rise of sport climbing and as climbers began to emulate elite climbers out west who were moving to single ropes for speed.  

See this very informative article on the history of this and best practices around double rope climbing by Andy Kirkpatrick here:

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/the-problem-with-skinny-singles

From the facts of this case, it seems clear that a second rope using the double rope technique would have saved this poor climbers life because even if it hadn’t been clipped at all, a second rope connected to the belayer would have prevented him falling the full 40m / 130 feet from above the third pitch.  

Is this tragic accident not a call for us to return to the safe practice of using a double rope for non-elite multi-pitch trad climbing?

Yea, nice point.

After reading all of the posts the lingering thought for me is, can a rope actually fail in this manner? No disrespect to the thorough accident report, it's just kind of a novel concept. It would be great if somebody would do some tests. I'll donate a rope.

I'm very sorry to the friends and family of this wonderful young man. It's times like this that make me think, maybe climbing is not so cool after all.

Based on the report and it suggesting the rope was pinched by the carabiner, I've been trying to understand why this does not happen on slab more often?

Is there a less chance of the rope pinching on slab because there could be a slight angle between the rope and the climber end after the fall? Whereas this angle may not exist if the climber falls at the lip of an overhang? The image might help with what I'm pondering/processing.

David Burridgewrote:

After reading all of the posts the lingering thought for me is, can a rope actually fail in this manner? No disrespect to the thorough accident report, it's just kind of a novel concept. It would be great if somebody would do some tests. I'll donate a rope.

I'm very sorry to the friends and family of this wonderful young man. It's times like this that make me think, maybe climbing is not so cool after all.

David, your first drawing kinda illustrates it. This accident was a peculiar combination of conditions and contributing factors. The climber would have to fall below the angle of the terrain of the last protection piece, but if he/she did and the rope crossed, it could produce a FF2. It definitely brings some things into awareness that I have never considered before. I agree on Allan's double rope point. 

Allan Wilsonwrote:

In most other countries outside the US, single rope climbing is not the norm in multi-pitch trad climbing for precisely this reason.  Indeed it is standard practice, especially for non-elite climbers, to practice double rope climbing.  Unfortunately it would seem that double rope climbing went out of fashion for trad climbing in the US many years ago with the rise of sport climbing and as climbers began to emulate elite climbers out west who were moving to single ropes for speed. 

Sport climbing had nothing to do with it. I started in 1972 at the Gunks. Only a handful of parties - literally less than 10 - ever used doubles. I actually noticed an increase in double rope use in the 90's.

Allan Wilsonwrote:

As a “foreign” climber who has only relatively recently been climbing in the US, one thing that strikes me in the discussion so far on this terribly tragic accident, is that there has been no mention about the use of a single rope in this case.  

The accident report describes this as a “freak” accident and there has been lots of discussion on the technicalities of how the rope severed. Yet severed ropes are relatively common in climbing, especially trad climbing, for all kinds of reasons. Indeed this thread mentions several other examples including a previous case at Seneca.

In most other countries outside the US, single rope climbing is not the norm in multi-pitch trad climbing for precisely this reason.  Indeed it is standard practice, especially for non-elite climbers, to practice double rope climbing.  Unfortunately it would seem that double rope climbing went out of fashion for trad climbing in the US many years ago with the rise of sport climbing and as climbers began to emulate elite climbers out west who were moving to single ropes for speed.  

See this very informative article on the history of this and best practices around double rope climbing by Andy Kirkpatrick here:

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/the-problem-with-skinny-singles

From the facts of this case, it seems clear that a second rope using the double rope technique would have saved this poor climbers life because even if it hadn’t been clipped at all, a second rope connected to the belayer would have prevented him falling the full 40m / 130 feet from above the third pitch.  

Is this tragic accident not a call for us to return to the safe practice of using a double rope for non-elite multi-pitch trad climbing?

In the early 70s a friend was killed when his single rope was cut during a lead fall on Ben Nevis. Around the same time I had a rope cut into the core when it ran along a rough edge during a pendulum fall while seconding. Following those incidents we did routinely use double ropes for many years. However once sport climbing ‘arrived’ I ‘regressed’ to using single ropes again—even for trad climbs. This tragic incident is making me rethink this approach.

Condolences to his family, friends, and those who were present and/or responded.

Edit to add: Marc, I must have been one of those 10 parties in the Gunks then, but recall there were many more. And, as I wrote above, it was sport climbing that made me revert to singles again.

Allan Wilsonwrote:

As a “foreign” climber who has only relatively recently been climbing in the US, one thing that strikes me in the discussion so far on this terribly tragic accident, is that there has been no mention about the use of a single rope in this case.  

What I was thinking, too.   What diameter of double/twin ropes are "foreigners" typically using for "non-elite" trad?

Allan Wilsonwrote:

As a “foreign” climber who has only relatively recently been climbing in the US, one thing that strikes me in the discussion so far on this terribly tragic accident, is that there has been no mention about the use of a single rope in this case.  

The accident report describes this as a “freak” accident and there has been lots of discussion on the technicalities of how the rope severed. Yet severed ropes are relatively common in climbing, especially trad climbing, for all kinds of reasons. Indeed this thread mentions several other examples including a previous case at Seneca.

In most other countries outside the US, single rope climbing is not the norm in multi-pitch trad climbing for precisely this reason.  Indeed it is standard practice, especially for non-elite climbers, to practice double rope climbing.  Unfortunately it would seem that double rope climbing went out of fashion for trad climbing in the US many years ago with the rise of sport climbing and as climbers began to emulate elite climbers out west who were moving to single ropes for speed.  

See this very informative article on the history of this and best practices around double rope climbing by Andy Kirkpatrick here:

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/the-problem-with-skinny-singles

From the facts of this case, it seems clear that a second rope using the double rope technique would have saved this poor climbers life because even if it hadn’t been clipped at all, a second rope connected to the belayer would have prevented him falling the full 40m / 130 feet from above the third pitch.  

Is this tragic accident not a call for us to return to the safe practice of using a double rope for non-elite multi-pitch trad climbing?

Honestly whether a double rope would've helped or not, as a 2 factor is a lot of force...  we can't know.  But I am glad you linked this.  The more options folks have for safety the better.

IMO The move towards less safe practices in numerous areas to achieve a "lighter" setup in the USA, particularly among non-elite climbers, but also at the elite level, is not discussed for what it is.

Most important is making an informed decision for youself about risk and weight vs. safety trade-offs.

I am team 2 ropes, but as a large climber I also really can't take factor 1 falls.  So I assess risk differently.

Allan Wilsonwrote:

As a “foreign” climber who has only relatively recently been climbing in the US, one thing that strikes me in the discussion so far on this terribly tragic accident, is that there has been no mention about the use of a single rope in this case.  

The accident report describes this as a “freak” accident and there has been lots of discussion on the technicalities of how the rope severed. Yet severed ropes are relatively common in climbing, especially trad climbing, for all kinds of reasons. Indeed this thread mentions several other examples including a previous case at Seneca.

In most other countries outside the US, single rope climbing is not the norm in multi-pitch trad climbing for precisely this reason.  Indeed it is standard practice, especially for non-elite climbers, to practice double rope climbing.  Unfortunately it would seem that double rope climbing went out of fashion for trad climbing in the US many years ago with the rise of sport climbing and as climbers began to emulate elite climbers out west who were moving to single ropes for speed.  

See this very informative article on the history of this and best practices around double rope climbing by Andy Kirkpatrick here:

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/the-problem-with-skinny-singles

From the facts of this case, it seems clear that a second rope using the double rope technique would have saved this poor climbers life because even if it hadn’t been clipped at all, a second rope connected to the belayer would have prevented him falling the full 40m / 130 feet from above the third pitch.  

Is this tragic accident not a call for us to return to the safe practice of using a double rope for non-elite multi-pitch trad climbing?

I assume you mean clipping pieces separately and not as with a twin rope? To me it always felt logical to carry up two ropes if you needed to do a double rap, but is it only safer if you use half rope technique, compared to a similar total diameter of single rope? I've definitely had to decide between a couple of 8-ish mm twin ropes and, say, a 9.5mm single and not been sure what makes more sense.

Speaking of, do we know what rope was used in this accident?

Hi Lion, I’m originally from Cape Town, South Africa and we typically used 8mm - 8.5mm double ropes which is pretty much what Andy Fitzpatrick recommends too:

SO WHAT YOU’RE SAYING IS…

I think most climbers should stay close to old school rope standards for standard climbing, be that indoors or out, sport or trad, winter or summer, so around 10 mm (9.5mm to 10.5 mm) for a single rope, and 8 mm ( 7.7 mm to 8.5 mm) to for double ropes, ideally dry treated.

I also think that double ropes should be viewed as the standard for trad and multi-pitch climbing, just like having two parachutes is viewed as standard. This might be harder for climbers who live in an area that has a culture of single ropes, but as soon as you start using two ropes, you will soon see all the advantages, both in ascent, descent and rescue.

Yes, skinny ropes have their place, but it’s important not to get distracted from their purpose, that they’re safety equipment, and that keeping you safe should not be compromised in any way, weight least of all unless weight is part of that safety equation. 99% of the time it isn’t.

So yes, you can make the most of what rope technology has to offer, to employ a state of the art 8.5 mm single rope, or 7.7 mm half rope for your hardest climbs, but such ropes are perhaps best kept in the Bat cave until you get the call, ready for superhero business.

Are there pictures of the carabiner in question? If the carabiner did cut the rope I'd be interested in what kind of carabiner was used. Quite possibly a lighter weight I-beam style carabiner could contribute to the concentration of the forces on a pinched rope. Or did the gate somehow play a part since it was mentioned there were fibers found?

Jasonwrote:

I assume you mean clipping pieces separately and not as with a twin rope? To me it always felt logical to carry up two ropes if you needed to do a double rap, but is it only safer if you use half rope technique, compared to a similar total diameter of single rope? I've definitely had to decide between a couple of 8-ish mm twin ropes and, say, a 9.5mm single and not been sure what makes more sense.

Speaking of, do we know what rope was used in this accident?

Hi Jason, yes correct I do mean clipping pieces separately using the half rope technique and not the twin rope technique.  I typically use two 8.5mm ropes in this way.  

Unfortunately I don’t think the report mentioned what rope was used.  

Danny was an amazingly kind and giving person. Always had a smile to give. Always willing to help and give advice to anyone who asked at our local climbing gym. He made a lasting impact on friends and coworkers.

The peak impact force of Danny falling F2 approximately 3-4 meters would be less than 10kn and probably closer to 5-7kn due to some deceleration from rope and harness stretch. Tensile strength of common dynamic climbing ropes is going to be 18kn to 25kn depending on the condition of the rope and how the rope is connected.

So reading above it doesn't make any sense how the rope could break but I will explain one scenario.

In this case, the initial failure is likely a shear failure which resulted in a break (tensile) failure. There is very little testing and research out there on rope shear failure. Why, because climbing ropes have terrible shear strength and there not meant to. During the fall, when the climbers strand pushed on the carabiner, it acted like a lever pushing the carabiner into the bottom strand underneath. Since levers can lift heavy loads with a small amount of force this could have a multiplier effect here. The bottom strand was restricted from moving due to the rock below it. As the load increased, the carabiner acted like a heavy, but very small, hammer striking the rope on top of the rock. 5-7kn (1000 pounds) or potentially more. As the pressure increased some filaments started to break. As the initial filaments break the adjacent filaments need to hold more load to avoid failure. If the load is still increasing, there’s a chain reaction and the filaments continue to break until a catastrophic tensile failure results. That was the “gunshot” bang the belayer heard. Ropes being cut on a sharp edge don’t make a gunshot bang.

Further testing needs to be done to answer these questions. We may never know exactly how or what happened. Hopefully, we use information on these posts to educate the climbing community about the dangers of trad climbing. Climb easier when learning and take the necessary time to build your skills. Make your epics on a 5.3s and 5.4s so you know what to do when you run into trouble on harder climbs. Gain accident knowledge and read the AAC Accident report every year. Hire a certified guide to teach you the necessary skills. Please climb safely out there. 

Our thoughts and prayers go out to Danny’s family and friends.

Doug Lingschwrote:

Further testing needs to be done to answer these questions. We may never know exactly how or what happened. Hopefully, we use information on these posts to educate the climbing community about the dangers of trad climbing. Climb easier when learning and take the necessary time to build your skills. Make your epics on a 5.3s and 5.4s so you know what to do when you run into trouble on harder climbs. Gain accident knowledge and read the AAC Accident report every year. Hire a certified guide to teach you the necessary skills. Please climb safely out there. 

 

Our thoughts and prayers go out to Danny’s family and friends.

Well said, Doug, thank you.

New rule: if you have some wild theory about how this happened, include a way to prevent it. This conspiracy theory stuff is dragging us down.

Is this a scenario specific to Seneca, or are there other documented instances of other rope cuts happening in similar ways? Reading about this and some other incidents recently has increased my interest in double rope systems.