Seneca Rocks Accident 8/5

Possible perhaps.... if the carabiner was worn down enough to make that sharp edge you sometimes see.  This sucks.

Eli Helmuthwrote:

Condolences to the family and friends of the deceased. I hope the first responders can also get assistance as these traumatic events can trigger long-term issues.

There was a similar lead rope cutting death in Eldorado Canyon in 2010 that was analyzed in-depth. Here's the Eldo report Link. 

That was a very different mode of failure based on the 2 reports.

Very unfortunate either way. 

james jameswrote:

So what is the critical component of this occasion - the belayer taking in large amounts of slack during the fall, creating a factor 2+? I see that pictures of the rope have been removed... anyone know if the rope was old or worn?

I don't have the whole answer, but if the belayer's side never went taut because of the pinching effect, then the amount of slack out wouldn't matter

Josh Gateswrote:

I don't have the whole answer, but if the belayer's side never went taut because of the pinching effect, then the amount of slack out wouldn't matter

It would matter, if the belayer was able to pull in slack fast enough to reduce the amount of rope between the climber and the first carabiner before the pinching took effect. In this case where the fall was announced well ahead of time, the belayer might have begun yarding up slack before the fall even began.

Still, I find it hard to believe a single fall would cut a rope without any sharp edge involved, even if that fall was a little greater than factor-2.

james jameswrote:

It would matter, if the belayer was able to pull in slack fast enough to reduce the amount of rope between the climber and the first carabiner before the pinching took effect. In this case where the fall was announced well ahead of time, the belayer might have begun yarding up slack before the fall even began.

Still, I find it hard to believe a single fall would cut a rope without any sharp edge involved, even if that fall was a little greater than factor-2.

Ah, I'm with you. Good call.

bryans wrote:

But one takeaway is that even on pure sport (all bolted) climbs the leader should carry a few draws of different lengths, and definitely a couple long slings, so that you can switch out one draw for another if you don't like the way the rope and/or lower carabiner are running over a edge. 

I've encountered this at least twice on sport climbs. One time it occurred when I stick clipped the first bolt, climbed up to it, then took. My partner tried to lower me but the rope was pinched between the rock and carabiner and I was held entirely by the pinched rope. They had slack but I was hanging from the first draw.

I buy that the rope was pinched under the biner. and that it cut there. I don't buy that the biner cut the rope. I suspect the rough /sharp Seneca rock cut the rope. Ropes are designed to take multiple FF2  falls over a biner  size edge. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I buy that the rope was pinched under the biner. and that it cut there. I don't buy that the biner cut the rope. I suspect the rough /sharp Seneca rock cut the rope. Ropes are designed to take multiple FF2  falls over a biner  size edge. 

That's not the scenario here. With a normal fall, even FF2, the rope will run over the edge. It would not be free to do so here. Instead there will be a large compressive force applied to the same spot on the rope as it's being tension-ed. Maybe someone who works in the industry can comment but I don't think ropes are normally tested like this.

It's either really old  or really skinny or both rope or it's  typical sharp seneca rock cutting the rope that is caught between the biner and the rock .  the diamater of the rope used is very pertinent information in this case.  I know good old fat 10.2mm ropes are out of fashion these days. I know If I was forced to use a single rope @ seneca it would be the burlyest one I could  afford. I have always climbed on half Roes at Seneca. its a sharp place. 

I was hoping that once the report was posted the speculation would stop but it seems to be getting worse. 

not really. its narrowed down to the rope cut  at the  biner.  the investigating team concluded that the biner pinched the rope against the rock and cut it. I am contesting that the sharp seneca rock may be more at fault than the carabiner.  I also firmly believe that the rope should be tested for chemical contamination.  the failure should be repeatable in a lab if in fact its really the biner cutting through the rope? other important info would be if there was any burrs on the rope end biner. if the biner was roughed up from bolt hanger wear then absolutely no problem believing that the biner was the  major culprit. 

Post limit 

Brian L  I did not see the age of the rope in the report or the brand and model which would tell us how many falls it is rated for. did not see anything about the condition of the carabiner other than rope fragments caught in the carabiner. 

Bryan Lwrote:

I was hoping that once the report was posted the speculation would stop but it seems to be getting worse. 

No report is the last word on anything, and typically involve much speculation themselves.

Furthermore, there’s nothing wrong with speculation, it helps flesh out all the potential risks of climbing.

Tradibanwrote:

No report is the last word on anything, and typically involve much speculation wherein.

Furthermore, there’s nothing wrong with speculation, it helps flesh out all the potential risks of climbing.

But not all of the speculation is based on the facts. The age of the rope and state of the carabiners was looked at while doing the report. Non fact based speculation is not productive at all. 

Bryan Lwrote:

But not all of the speculation is based on the facts. The age of the rope and state of the carabiners is was looked at while doing the report. Non fact based speculation is not productive at all. 

It is actually. It helps people remember that rope age and the state of carabiners are important safety checks.

Tradibanwrote:

It is actually. It helps people remember that rope age and the state of carabiners are important safety checks.

Agreed that it is good practice to inspect these things but they were not a factor in this accident.

I'm withholding judgement until I hear that the rope was tested for battery acid contamination. The frayed description of the rope is very similar to a rope that failed due to acid. There was one that failed in a gym fall which should have been low impact (this was not a FF2) and the caribiner was looked at extensively until it was learned that the otherwise somewhat near new rope had acid contamination.  I once carried a kid out when his rope failed while rappeling, it's not a pretty thing. 

Sorry to hear that we lost a good one. Its a reminder to all climbers that S^^t happens and it can be damned random at times.  Condolences to his loved ones. 

Billcoewrote:

I'm withholding judgement until I hear that the rope was tested for battery acid contamination. The frayed description of the rope is very similar to a rope that failed due to acid.

I may be misremembering and dont want to speculate on anything here but wasnt there another incident at seneca years back that was caused by this exactly?

I’ll leave it at this.

The amount of experience between Arthur and Patrick is quite extensive. If they had found that the carabiner had burrs or sharp edges that would have lead to a severed rope  or the rope was in poor shape and should have been retired  it would have been mentioned in their analysis of the day’s unfortunate events. I trust their analysis of what unfolded on SJM and led to the rope being cut. 

Samuel Puckettwrote:

I may be misremembering and dont want to speculate on anything here but wasnt there another incident at seneca years back that was caused by this exactly?

Yeah there was a similar event that happened on La Bella Vista back in the early 2010s of a rope being cut when it was caught in a notch in the rock. 

Bryan Lwrote:

Agreed that it is good practice to inspect these things but they were not a factor in this accident.

We don’t know that for sure and there’s no harm in discussing all possible explanations.

It’s not productive to determine who is wrong or right here, it is productive to have an open discussion considering all possible options.

The “pinch” theory seems unlikely to many of us and it seems entirely plausible that there were other contributing factors.