Accidents Caused by Worn/Old Soft Goods (harnesses, dogbones, slings, etc)

The general recommendation for retiring soft goods is somewhere between 5-10 years.  I'm curious how often worn soft goods actually cause climbing accidents.  I don't regularly read the AAC accident reports...maybe I should.  I can think of 2, and really only one should count:

• Todd Skinner died in 2006 from an accident involving a worn harness
• Dan Osman died in 1998 while rope jumping using ropes that had been left in the sun for several months.

I think a rope being cut by a sharp edge should not count as an "accident caused by worn soft goods".  Does anyone know of examples where worn soft goods caused an accident?  Or even where a sling/dogbone/whatever failed but no one was hurt?

I remember reading that a dogbone broke on project draw around Las Vegas I think? Probably had been hanging in a cave for more then ten years. With everything concerning you or your partners life you need to have some discretion. It’s very naive to assume everything’s fine because it was fine last time. Do I change my soft goods after 5 years that sit in a bin in the basement 90 percent of there life no. But if something looks like shit, smells like shit, and feels like shit. It’s probably shit… 

Tat anchors have shortened lifespan due to environmental conditions, but they're still "worn soft goods that cause accidents"  

Just a few of many examples:

• https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/122887074/east-ridge-of-wolfs-head-peak-accident-report-july-6-2022 
• https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/122145280/fatal-accident-in-jtree 
• https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/123142420/fatal-accident-at-tahquitz-today

4433407 k wrote:

Tat anchors have shortened lifespan due to environmental conditions, but they're still "worn soft goods that cause accidents"  

Just a few of many examples:

• https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/122887074/east-ridge-of-wolfs-head-peak-accident-report-july-6-2022 
• https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/122145280/fatal-accident-in-jtree 
• https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/123142420/fatal-accident-at-tahquitz-today

Beat me to those examples.

To the OP: It only takes once to die, why risk it?

Derrick W wrote:

• Dan Osman died in 1998 while rope jumping using ropes that had been left in the sun for several months

From what I've read this didn't actually contribute to the accident. Jumping at a slightly different angle caused to the ropes to run across each other and cut.

Derrick W wrote:

The general recommendation for retiring soft goods is somewhere between 5-10 years.  I'm curious how often worn soft goods actually cause climbing accidents.  I don't regularly read the AAC accident reports...maybe I should.  I can think of 2, and really only one should count:

• Todd Skinner died in 2006 from an accident involving a worn harness
• Dan Osman died in 1998 while rope jumping using ropes that had been left in the sun for several months.

I think a rope being cut by a sharp edge should not count as an "accident caused by worn soft goods".  Does anyone know of examples where worn soft goods caused an accident?  Or even where a sling/dogbone/whatever failed but no one was hurt?

Wear =/= age. 

Todd skinners harness was mank that was mostly worn through supposedly. Doesn't mean you need to retire gear after a certain amount of time. Mechanical wear and solar/env damage are the 2 contributors I have seen meaningfully affect strength. 

Some fixed slings on a less-traveled sport route breaking under bodyweight:
https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105734135/the-grotto#Comment-120468019

I feel like there's plenty of examples of in-situ soft goods failing. Examples of personal gear failing would be much more interesting.

tat anchors break every year.  Tod's harness was cut through by a girth hitched spectra daisy.  rappelling from old tat anchors is your best chance to die this way. carry some cord with you when expecting to have to rely on tat anchors. If you don't have cord leave a brand new sling if necessary. it's cheaper than dying. 

Dr Logic wrote:

Technically, dying is cheaper for the one doing the dying. But point taken. I've literally gotten into arguments with climbing partners about leaving tat. Had one yell at me for even suggesting we could always just leave a piece of gear if we had to (winter alpine trip). It's insane how cheap some people are. My life is worth more than everything on my rack combined. I'm always willing to part with anything i need to to stay safe. Gear and tat are replaceable. 

I mean are we talking about red link cams or old attaches though? 

But yes it blows my mind when I find anchors that are just 10 pieces of mank tat, next to a perfectly good face that could take 2 bolts and some rings that would last forever. 

Here's the question I'm curious about: What is the appropriate replacement interval for soft goods that are properly stored and taken care of (i.e., not tat)?  Obviously, the plural of anecdote is not data, and no one is going to answer that question definitively in a thread on the internet...I just want some examples (thanks to those provided so far).  I think we can all agree the answer is somewhere between 1-50 years.

Arguments like Tradiban's "It only takes once to die, why risk it?" apply equally well to the recommendation that all soft goods should be replaced every year, but everyone would laugh at that suggestion.

On the other hand, gear manufacturers do have an incentive to give a replacement interval that doesn't lead to them getting sued, so 5 years is probably a lower bound on the answer.  However, they also have a profit incentive to suggest shorter replacement intervals than would be suggested by the data.  I'm guessing that 5 years is the answer to the question: what is the minimum replacement interval we can suggest without people complaining about how our soft goods aren't durable?

Do I want to die? No.  Am I gonna die? Yes.  Do I replace my soft goods every 5 years? No.  Do I replace them before they break? Yes.

I recently met a the person who had hung perma draws that when removing, I had torn one in half. They were 10 years old lol

Derrick W wrote:

Here's the question I'm curious about: What is the appropriate replacement interval for soft goods that are properly stored and taken care of (i.e., not tat)?  Obviously, the plural of anecdote is not data, and no one is going to answer that question definitively in a thread on the internet...I just want some examples (thanks to those provided so far).  I think we can all agree the answer is somewhere between 1-50 years.

Arguments like Tradiban's "It only takes once to die, why risk it?" apply equally well to the recommendation that all soft goods should be replaced every year, but everyone would laugh at that suggestion.

On the other hand, gear manufacturers do have an incentive to give a replacement interval that doesn't lead to them getting sued, so 5 years is probably a lower bound on the answer.  However, they also have a profit incentive to suggest shorter replacement intervals than would be suggested by the data.  I'm guessing that 5 years is the answer to the question: what is the minimum replacement interval we can suggest without people complaining about how our soft goods aren't durable?

Do I want to die? No.  Am I gonna die? Yes.  Do I replace my soft goods every 5 years? No.  Do I replace them before they break? Yes.

Having dealt with this very question for the gym industry, you must follow the manufacture’s guidelines, which vary.

So, if you are trying to reach a clear cut answer there isn’t one, that’s why you need to inspect these things on a regular basis to be up to “code” so to speak.

It would help to know the reason you need an answer on this.

Have you ever checked out the incredible YouTube page "HowNot2" ?

They break tons of stuff, and one of the most concerning things that I've ever seen them break, is old quick draws.

Replace your dog bones.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=yoHDQNw9OfA&feature=share7

Croz and Tugwalder on Matterhorn

Derrick W wrote:

I can think of 2, and really only one should count:

None of these count  

• Todd Skinner died in 2006 from an accident involving a worn harness

Reportedly Todd was told by many friends and partners that his belay loop looked very worn and he should retire his harness.  He was waiting on a new harness from his sponsors.  If your soft goods look bad, they are bad.  

• Dan Osman died in 1998 while rope jumping using ropes that had been left in the sun for several months.

Not relevant. Jumping 1000-2000 feet or so in free fall onto climbing gear, brand new, in perfect condition is definitely not in the realm of rock climbing or intended purpose of the gear.  

After his first successful jump on gear not intended for this purpose, he let the gear sit in place for several weeks, rodents,UV,who knows what, then he tested the system again???  The system failed.

 Totally irrelevant to the question asked here.  

I have a new climbing partner that has an eleven years old rope in brand new condition.  I whip on that shit all the time.  

My Beal rope said the life if stored properly was 15 years from purchase or 10 years after first use. Of course wear and tear will likely cause replacement before the 10 year mark, but I was very pleased with the manufacturers statement.

I think sewn gear is a little more suspect. 

Latte pronto 

Powell Nicodemus wrote:

Have you ever checked out the incredible YouTube page "HowNot2" ?

They break tons of stuff, and one of the most concerning things that I've ever seen them break, is old quick draws.

Replace your dog bones.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=yoHDQNw9OfA&feature=share7

He did a test of old alpine runners that had been stored and not used and they broke at close to rated strength. That being said, I’ve replaced the webbing on my cams three times. Old webbing definitely seems to be the weak link in the system.

Greg D wrote:

Reportedly Todd was told by many friends and partners that his belay loop looked very worn and he should retire his harness.  He was waiting on a new harness from his sponsors.  If your soft goods look bad, they are bad.  

When I was 15, like in '84-ish, Todd and Paul Piana taught an advanced crack climbing class at Enchanted Rock down in Texas. They had the most climbing gear I'd ever seen or could ever imagine at the time. Those two dudes lugged around enough gear to climb every route in the guidebook at once, and that's not counting what they left in their car.

I literally couldn't believe how worn through nearly every piece of gear they had was. Most carabiners were literally worn almost half-through, on both ends. It literally distracted me all weekend staring at this massive pile of near garbage they used. I was a kid and he was a hero so I never said a word, but I'll never forget it. It was only mildly shocking when I heard how he stacked it in the end.

To be clear, I'm not bagging on the guy like it might sound, I loved that dude, we were friends. It's just facts..

does anyone have a good link to  reliable cam reslinger?