New and experienced climbers over 50 # 25

This route showed up on my computer this morning... I'm having a chuckle remembering the fear I felt climbing Heart and Sole.  It was a surprise visit to that route, I had a difficult time with the lower slab (which felt so slick and polished, but I shoulda been able to climb it)... but more, when that traverse came up, I DID NOT want to let go of my safety hold.  That was my first experience with having to let go of one hold, walk across a traverse, and move on up.  Just pure terror.    I mean, how far could you possibly fall/swing?  Not that far.  I did it, but I sure didn't want to!   I'd like to try it again... maybe I wouldn't choke next time.  Total sissy.

(MP photo Photo by Steph Abegg)

Lori posted:

"Maybe all the dead and mangled climbers have caused a change in attitude of 'This isn’t part of the deal.' " 

Say what?

It is fairly apparent that climbing accidents are not related in any measurable way to run out rock climbs. 

Most people get hurt and killed making errors of judgment (belays, anchors, rappelling/lowering) and natural hazards (rockfall and weather ). 

We see tragic accidents on sport bolted climbs with increasing frequency.

Randywrote:

Lori posted:

"Maybe all the dead and mangled climbers have caused a change in attitude of 'This isn’t part of the deal.' " 

Say what?

It is fairly apparent that climbing accidents are not related in any measurable way to run out rock climbs. 

Most people get hurt and killed making errors of judgment (belays, anchors, rappelling/lowering) and natural hazards (rockfall and weather ). 

We see tragic accidents on sport bolted climbs with increasing frequency.

Dunno if attitudes in general are even changing toward the mountaineering end of it, which is truly a whole other level of dangers. It can be argued climbing is getting more risky, higher stakes....but I think it's pretty much always been a risky thing. But, what I have seen, is more than one friend rethinking their love of the alpine, how much they want to push that......as they approach or pass 40ish and look around at their young families. Some have had pretty significant priority shifts, wanting partners who also had getting home top of the decision making list.

H.

Randywrote:

Lori posted:

"Maybe all the dead and mangled climbers have caused a change in attitude of 'This isn’t part of the deal.' " 

Say what?

It is fairly apparent that climbing accidents are not related in any measurable way to run out rock climbs. 

Most people get hurt and killed making errors of judgment (belays, anchors, rappelling/lowering) and natural hazards (rockfall and weather ). 

We see tragic accidents on sport bolted climbs with increasing frequency.

Randy- good one. Lori what you fail to understand is this. We all followed the “rule” of bolting. That is, you can bolt from a stance and it takes a ton of time and effort. One had to take the peer pressure- and it was real- for your FA. Weeny out and place more then needed- your climb got called out, you got called out- and became known as a “Weeny” to others. No one wanted to be known as one. All of US wanted to be like Bachar, or Darrell, or Largo, or Waugh… climbers who had earned respect.
Things have changed for sure. 

Lori Milaswrote: I don’t want to speak for Bob but I do think that daring and competitive danger-seeking are not as important as they once were?  I’m thinking of Bob’s explanation for how he bolts things today vs routes he bolted decades ago. Back then they were a “little bolder”. Was there also peer pressure? 

Maybe all the dead and mangled climbers have caused a change in attitude of “This isn’t part of the deal.”  And I am yet another generation of climbers removed where I want minimum possibility of dying on the hardest possible route. I think that fear and adrenaline were part of climbing before.. So maybe things have changed.

Hi Lori. Here's an excerpt from my book Advanced Rock Climbing, explaining how ethics changed over a few decades:

"The term “sport climb” wasn’t heard in the United States until the 1980s. Before that, through the 1970s and into the early 1980s, a “ground-up” ethic prevailed at many traditional climbing areas in the United States, like Yosemite, Tahquitz and Suicide Rocks, and Joshua Tree, California, and Eldorado Canyon, Colorado.

First ascents were done without preview, and bolts were drilled on the lead, often from precarious stances. As far back as 1972, visionary climber Doug Robinson wrote: “But every climb is not for every climber; the ultimate climbs are not democratic. The fortunate climbs protect themselves by being unprotectable and remain a challenge that can be solved only by boldness and commitment backed solidly by technique.”

But as techniques progressed, climbers were drawn to steeper and blanker faces, where it was impossible to let go with both hands to hand-drill and place a bolt.

The use of hooks for aid made it possible to drill bolts on the lead, ground up, on these steeper routes. The zenith of the ground-up era was undoubtedly John Bachar’s lead of the Bachar-Yerian route (5.11c R) in Yosemite in summer 1981, which follows a vertical water streak studded with knobs leading up the intimidating 400-foot west face of Tuolumne Meadow’s Medlicott Dome. Bachar risked 100-foot falls venturing into unknown terrain, hanging from hooks to drill bolts. To this day the route has become a test piece for elite face climbers wising to test both physical and psychological limits. But there haven’t been many takers—in almost forty years the route has seen only a couple dozen ascents.

In Europe, sport climbing was well established in France by the 1980s, principally due to the nature of the rock: overhanging limestone riddled with finger pockets but devoid of crack systems. For free climbing to progress, top-down rappel bolted routes seemed the next logical progression of the sport, and French free climbers soon eclipsed Americans constrained by traditional ground-up ethics.

Alan Watts is widely credited with establishing the first US sport climbs at Smith Rocks, Oregon. In 1983 Watts climbed Watts Tot’s (5.12b) up a vertical, nearly featureless face, and Chain Reaction (5.12c) up a spectacular, overhanging arête, ushering in an era that would change American rock climbing forever.

In his Smith Rock State Park guidebook Watts writes about Chain Reaction: “With that one ascent all the pieces fell into place, and it became obvious what we had to do. If something as outrageous as Chain Reaction went free, then almost everything would go. All the elements were there—featured rock, rappel bolting, cleaning, hangdogging, lots of free time, sufficient technical skills, and no opposition. The final point was key. I wasn’t pursuing my style to revolt against the established norms in climbing. All I was trying to do was tick another route off my list. And I was using the most efficient process that I could devise to do that. I might not have been a rebel, but I didn’t give a damn about doing things exactly how they’d been done before. I truly believed that I had found a better way to push limits of difficulty.” Smith Rock State Park quickly became a US sport climbing mecca, and today the park boasts more than 1,800 sport routes.

Soon, sport climbs were sprouting up everywhere, but in the 1980s and early 1990s at traditional climbing areas like Yosemite and Joshua Tree, top-down rappel-bolted sport climbs weren’t widely accepted. An era that can only be termed “bolt wars” ensued as staunch traditionalists chopped rappel-placed bolts as fast as they went up.

In 1985, after returning from a climbing trip to France, where he witnessed the evolution of French sport climbing, a young and talented upstart by the name of Christian Griffith established the first sport climb in Eldorado Canyon, Colorado, Paris Girls (5.13a), which was summarily chopped. The bolts were reinstalled, and Griffith went on to establish Eldorado’s most difficult face routes at the time—Desdichado (5.13c), up a spectacular overhang, and Lakme (5.13b), up a stunning arête on Eldorado’s Redgarden Wall. While Eldorado Canyon, with its majority of traditional climbs, never became a sport climbing center, other Colorado areas like Boulder Canyon, Shelf Road, Clear Creek Canyon, and Rifle Mountain Park would become major sport climbing areas.

In 1986 visiting French climber Jean-Baptiste Tribout established the first climb in America to be graded 5.14 with his redpoint of To Bolt or Not to Be (5.14a) at Smith Rocks. This served as a wake-up call for American rock climbers that the future for increasing standards of difficulty would be through sport climbing.

While the bolt wars raged at traditional bastions like Joshua Tree and  Yosemite Valley, isolated areas without traditional history were simultaneously being developed into popular sport climbing areas—places like Owens River Gorge and Clark Mountain in California, the Calico Hills of the Red Rocks in Nevada, Kentucky’s Red River Gorge, and the Rumney Cliffs of New Hampshire.

By the mid-1990s climbing gyms began to sprout up in almost every major urban center in America. A new generation of climbers, who had learned on artificial walls, ventured outside, naturally drawn to sport climbing. This new generation largely eschewed scary runout traditional climbs and adopted a healthy appetite for well-protected, fun sport climbs. The bolt wars ended, and sport climbing was here to stay. The next controversy, which has continued to this day, is the retro-bolting of older traditional routes, adding bolts to make the routes safer for the masses. It will be up to the next generation to define the future of the sport, but it’s my hope that retro-bolting the Bachar-Yerian route and routes like it will never happen."

Randywrote:

Lori posted:

"Maybe all the dead and mangled climbers have caused a change in attitude of 'This isn’t part of the deal.' " 

Lori, I recommend reading a few copies of “Accidents in North American Mountaineering” from different years. It’s published by the AAC and might be an eye-opener for you.

Guy Keeseewrote:

Randy- good one. Lori what you fail to understand is this. We all followed the “rule” of bolting. That is, you can bolt from a stance and it takes a ton of time and effort. One had to take the peer pressure- and it was real- for your FA. Weeny out and place more then needed- your climb got called out, you got called out- and became known as a “Weeny” to others. No one wanted to be known as one. All of US wanted to be like Bachar, or Darrell, or Largo, or Waugh… climbers who had earned respect.
Things have changed for sure. 

There you go! The answer!  I’M A WEENY!   

But more to the point Guy, it’s exactly what I thought. There was peer pressure and danger, and risk was part of the equation. So take for instance me… An expert toproper   … wouldn’t be allowed to associate with you guys.  You will hoot me right off the campus. 

So when you watch Chris Sharma climb or Adam Ondra, is anyone impressed by the danger of those climbs or by how excellent the climbing is? I’ve seen them both take some long falls, but that doesn’t give them any extra street cred in my opinion. What gives them street cred is the 515 C.  How could you even attempt that unless you were relatively safe? So maybe the point has changed maybe the ethics has changed.

Personally, if I could be any climber in the world, I would be John Bachar. Bob doesn’t think I will make it in this lifetime—I think he’s just being negative and unsupportive—but I can keep trying. On a top rope. 

Thanks Randy.  I was going to point that out but had already had my 3 posts for the day.

As Guy points out, there was some peer pressure to not put too many bolts in but Dave and I strived to put a bolt roughly every 15 feet when it was reasonable to do so.  We figured this would let other people feel reasonable on our routes.  Obviously it wasn't always possible to stop and drill and so we get routes like GTTLD and EBGBs.  However, I don't think we were more proud of those runout routes than we were of better protected routes like Loose Lady or Chalk Up Another One.

Lori Milaswrote:

So when you watch Chris Sharma climb or Adam Ondra, is anyone impressed by the danger of those climbs or by how excellent the climbing is? I’ve seen them both take some long falls, but that doesn’t give them any extra street cred in my opinion. 

Those falls aren't dangerous.  The falls may be long, but they are safe.

And yes, the new climbers are downy soft and they know it.  It must burn something fierce.

Russ Wallingwrote:

Those falls aren't dangerous.  The falls may be long, but they are safe.

And yes, the new climbers are downy soft and they know it.  It must burn something fierce.

The self-knowledge of softness has got to be a bubbling savage burn!! Such a horrific and 100% self inflicted phenomenon.

Russ Wallingwrote:

Those falls aren't dangerous.  The falls may be long, but they are safe.

And yes, the new climbers are downy soft and they know it.  It must burn something fierce.

Russ speaks the truth! Just remember one thing- we did these 5.10 - 5.11- and started knocking on the door to 5.12 climbs. People like Alan Watts were correct when they stated that the grades in the US wouldn’t go up until we adopted “sport climbing tactics”.
But today, especially after my latest trip to COR, I don’t think we have gotten any better regarding the bolting. I witnessed some real “weenies” at work at Bath Rock. These dudes were getting lowered from above! (Rap bolting) a 5.8! On perfect stone with a good stance every 10-15 feet (I mean a real honest to God no hands stance) not being a local I had zero reason to go and speak with them about it. Another climb, on the right side of Bath, has a 70m long climb. It’s about 5.4- and sports about 19-23 proud bolts! Personally I find this desecration of excellent stone, right amongst some fine natural climbs, to be quite the statement on climbing and climbers in 2023.
Lori… you would not like a 15-20 bolt “root” right next to RFYL, or Chalk up Another or on any climb in Josh. 

Guy Keeseewrote:

Another climb, on the right side of Bath, has a 70m long climb. It’s about 5.4- and sports about 19-23 proud bolts! Personally I find this desecration of excellent stone, right amongst some fine natural climbs, to be quite the statement on climbing and climbers in 2023.

It doesn’t bother me. They are new routes and it’s not retrobolting classics. I think it’s perfectly OK for there to be routes that beginners can lead while they are learning. I just skip clipping a bunch of bolts if I’m at a grade that I find easy.  

Re older climbs, in the prehistoric olden times before sport climbing,  I once asked a Yosemite climber, why the 5.11 Meadows routes I was doing were so well-bolted (12-15 ft apart) compared to the 5.9 and under routes. He knew all those people and said that people didn’t bother bolting stuff that was easy for them, but when it started getting to a grade where they themselves might fall, they put in more bolts. So now it’s a nicer attitude to others, new route developers put in bolts with the skill set in mind of the grade of the climb. 

Guy Keeseewrote:

 It’s about 5.4- and sports about 19-23 proud bolts! Personally I find this desecration of excellent stone, right amongst some fine natural climbs, to be quite the statement on climbing and climbers in 2023.

I have never racked up more than 17 (15+2) draws on any climb in the US so I will have to do what I normally do on tall climbs which are very comfortable for me and sporting more bolts than I expect for its length; I skip some of the protection or back clean a few.  

But let's dissected why one might be repulsed by the perceived over bolting on sport routes;
Is it because there are more than adequate number pieces of protection for a leader, climbing at close to his/her flash ability, to feel reasonably safe?
Or, is it because each piece of protection is an ugly hanger and a large hex head, visible from the ground 80 ft below?

I have to admit I find hangers ugly so you can probably guess my reaction when the skinny (but STRONG) Wave Bolt glue-ins appeared on the market about 8 years ago.
Sure, they are not suitable for bolting ground up (or hastily), but they are well camouflaged when placed on lighter colored, often speckled, featured rock common in the Northeast.
Often I have a hard time spotting a well placed Wave Bolt on a climb if it is more than 50 or 60 ft above the climb's start.
Not to mention a well placed glue-in is likely to require less maintanance over its 15~20 year life compared to an expansion bolt in the harsh Northeast.

Guy Keeseewrote:

Russ speaks the truth! Just remember one thing- we did these 5.10 - 5.11- and started knocking on the door to 5.12 climbs. People like Alan Watts were correct when they stated that the grades in the US wouldn’t go up until we adopted “sport climbing tactics”.
But today, especially after my latest trip to COR, I don’t think we have gotten any better regarding the bolting. I witnessed some real “weenies” at work at Bath Rock. These dudes were getting lowered from above! (Rap bolting) a 5.8! On perfect stone with a good stance every 10-15 feet (I mean a real honest to God no hands stance) not being a local I had zero reason to go and speak with them about it. Another climb, on the right side of Bath, has a 70m long climb. It’s about 5.4- and sports about 19-23 proud bolts! Personally I find this desecration of excellent stone, right amongst some fine natural climbs, to be quite the statement on climbing and climbers in 2023.
Lori… you would not like a 15-20 bolt “root” right next to RFYL, or Chalk up Another or on any climb in Josh. 

I'm going out on a limb here since I haven't seen the climbs on Castle Rock to which Guy refers. But I have done a bunch of routes on that rock, so at least I know what a fine chunk of stone it is. Also, I've seen plenty of other examples of the sort of bolting Guy describes. 

To make my point, and to support what Guy is saying, let's be clear for starters that neither Guy nor I are against sport climbing. In fact, it was Guy who talked me into my first foray into the Owens River Gorge. I was a staunch traditionalist and held the position that rap bolting was vandalism. He worked me, and worked me, and finally one day I ventured down the gulley into the den of the devil incarnate. As our first day wound to an end I couldn't get enough. It was a blast, and I was hooked. I spent a day pushing my limits without sticking my neck in the noose. What a novel concept.

To Guy's point, specifically about the 5.4; I know Guy, so I don't think I'm twisting his meaning if I say this is about aesthetics to some degree. That many bolts, perhaps one every body length, is unattractive. Despite the fact that I came around to loving sport climbing a long time ago, the part of me that see's out of control bolting as vandalism still speaks to me. It speaks to me when I hike up to Trapper Dome at Courtright Reservoir and am greeted by a slab I can walk up that is bolted every body length for beginners. Just exactly how does a beginner learn anything about leading there that they can’t learn in a gym (without defacing a beautiful stretch of rock with an inordinate number of bolts)?

Phyl says she’ll just pass a bunch of the bolts on a route like that, which makes enough sense. But it feels like the argument I get from people who want to bolt cracks (not that she is advocating that): “If you don’t like the bolts don’t clip them.” Sorry, they just don’t belong there in the first place.

So, what are the rules? What’s a good, bolted climb and what is a bad one? To paraphrase United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stuart, writing an opinion about pornography, I shall not attempt to further define excessive bolting, but I know it when I see it.

I’m curious what Lori’s answer is to Guy’s last sentence. But I saw on FB that she found a scorpion in her bath towel today, so she might be too busy packing to post… 

Oh God, it’s true. A scorpion dropped out of my bath towel last night and landed in the sink. I have a true phobia here. I have evacuated the bathroom until I can figure out what to do about this. Moving back to Sacramento is an option.    

I wanted to thank you all for holding forth on this bolting issue. I didn’t think I had any skin in the game, but I do now.  I’ve had a true conversion… totally unexpected. Kris’ post sealed the deal.

For one, this dialogue has helped me understand how protective I feel about Joshua Tree. No. I don’t want bolts running up and down RFYL. I want this place wild and free… safe for wildlife, pure and a little bit dangerous. 

The podcast by Alex Honnold discussing whether routes should be made safer with rebolting was a pretty lively discussion with most people on the side of sure, why not?  But as I’ve been hiking alone through this park this morning, I would hate to think of a new guard of gym or sport climbers, showing up with their chisels and hammers and turning this place into an outdoor gym. I’ve been listening to your stories for several years now, and I think the reason this means so much to me is because you were and are still a different breed. You were here for other reasons.

A few days ago I got as close as I could get to White Room without taking the risk of tumbling down Tumbling Rainbow. I got fixated on that right formation where Russ put up a route called Tonic Boom 12d. I have to say I would have been a lovesick groupie if I had seen him work on that, or many of the other routes in this park. You guys were not gym climbers. This was about something else. Maybe I was wondering whether you were more interested in the risk of death than in climbing a safe route. I don’t think it’s that… but danger comes with the territory. 

This is the one of the most beautiful places on the planet imo…and relative to the larger climbing community I only see the rare trad climber here.  so why not keep it that way?  

I’ve had a few friends come stay who boasted 5.10 and 5.11 climbing and honestly got shut down on a 5.8 here. They were completely overwhelmed with every part of their experience. I like that if I manage to climb a 5.10b I can brag a little.

Keeping in mind that my original question was about one route needing potentially one extra bolt. But I get Jan’s point.   

Also, I have a fresh appreciation for Bob. Over the last year we have investigated potential new routes and actually put up a few. He will ask me how I see it bolted (or not). Since I am not leading these routes I never have good input.  Now I understand why he is so thoughtful about these routes and the care he takes placing any bolts.  It makes me want to be a more thoughtful participant. And I certainly have been more and more drawn to leading…at which point I would care A LOT.

——-

I can’t believe that for my morning walk I get to sit at the base of Little Hunk. There’s not a soul for miles. I had a extreme low blood sugar last time I was here and pretty wedged in between some boulders and shrub had to grab sugar and be prepared to rescue myself with inhaled glucagon. I think I handled it pretty well. But it’s always a reminder of my own limits and when I have to stop and pull back from climbing something that I’m sure I can climb.  So I walked around to the backside to admire that beautiful wall with the Z roots, and walk a little further to have another look at the New Deal. Immediately to the right of the new deal is some beautiful face climbing and I will need to look that up and see if there’s anything in that area for me.

Since I’ve spent some time at Brownie girl steep face climbing it is growing on me so now Little Hunk looks pretty good. 

So while my little heart is fluttering over all the machismo, here in this park I’m also talking with Tony in Chicago . He called this morning and said he was at McDonald’s getting coffee and asked me what I’m doing. I told him I was making my organic drip coffee in the non-plastic ceramic cup. We had a good laugh, but he said well with California license plates when they see him coming McDonald’s pulls out the organic brew as well. He was at a family reunion last night and told me about all the pizza and beer and laughter and also what they all think of California types. The thing is if I get a little crush on all the macho stuff that has gone on here Tony is every bit that but he can’t really express it anymore so I’m just contemplating on how to bring the bad boy back out again.  After four back surgeries, he’s not able to walk very far. I don’t think he ever would have rock climbed but he’s strong as fuck. How can I set him free again? 

Lori Milaswrote:

So while my little heart is fluttering over all the machismo, here in this park I’m also talking with Tony in Chicago . He called this morning and said he was at McDonald’s getting coffee and asked me what I’m doing. I told him I was making my organic drip coffee in the non-plastic ceramic cup. We had a good laugh, but he said well with California license plates when they see him coming McDonald’s pulls out the organic brew as well. He was at a family reunion last night and told me about all the pizza and beer and laughter and also what they all think of California types. The thing is if I get a little crush on all the macho stuff that has gone on here Tony is every bit that but he can’t really express it anymore so I’m just contemplating on how to bring the bad boy back out again.  After four back surgeries, he’s not able to walk very far. I don’t think he ever would have rock climbed but he’s strong as fuck. How can I set him free again? 

Lori- you guys might consider this: I think Tony might agree- you two would look fabulous in the drive in line at In-n-Out. 

And because you liked the photo from my past- here is another. (Top photo) 67 Camaro, some dealership in Chicago built and sold 50 of these so it could qualify for “stock” in NHRA events.
Curtis and I were pretty handy with the wrenches in HS and made $$$ modifying other peoples cars. Curtis bought this Camaro “SS 427” but it’s not normal- this 427 is an Aluminum block. (L88) And underneath its made with tubes (to plant the tires) …. Quite the ride! We would travel around NE, IA, MN going to McDonald’s and car hangs challenging other like minded folks to friendly races, with money to make it interesting. We did OK until we visited Chicago….. then we got our clock cleaned and had to beg gas money to make it home.

Guy Keeseewrote:

And because you liked the photo from my past- here is another. (Top photo) 67 Camaro, some dealership in Chicago built and sold 50 of these so it could qualify for “stock” in NHRA events.
Curtis and I were pretty handy with the wrenches in HS and made $$$ modifying other peoples cars. Curtis bought this Camaro “SS 427” but it’s not normal- this 427 is an Aluminum block. And underneath its made with tubes (to plant the tires) …. Quite the ride! We would travel around NE, IA, MN going to McDonald’s and car hangs challenging other like minded folks to friendly races, with money to make it interesting. We did OK until we visited Chicago….. then we got our clock cleaned and had to beg gas money to make it home.

I love this, Guy!  Great pictures!  Tell me more? And how did you ever get to California?

Tony told me that I “sucked all the joy out of his life“ when I asked him to slow down on the grade between here and Palm Springs. He threatened, but has not followed through on never being the driver for us again.

I need help in understanding this Chicago cool. I know that Tony was a bouncer at a bar called Mothers, and I asked him one time to show me how he would throw me out of a bar. Very reluctantly he started to give me the Vulcan grip. YEOW!   

I’m starting to understand what 35 years of truck driving in and around Chicago could mean. In the years I’ve known him Tony is joyful and fearless, and a bit solitary. He tolerates my organic ways and makes only gluten-free pasta which I know is sacrilege. He pushes me out the door to go climb and tells me “ leave nothing on the table“.  How did I get so lucky? I would so love to return the favor.

EDIT: I think the route I was looking at is called the big apple. I seem to remember Bob mentioning that there could be a problem setting it up for me to climb.

Kristian Solemwrote:

Phyl says she’ll just pass a bunch of the bolts on a route like that, which makes enough sense. But it feels like the argument I get from people who want to bolt cracks (not that she is advocating that): “If you don’t like the bolts don’t clip them.” Sorry, they just don’t belong there in the first place.

But to be clear, Kris, it's literally that "it doesn't bother me", not that I like it or would do it that way if I ruled the world, it's just that I think life is too short to be bothered by things that I think are ultimately not very important in the grand scheme of things. Also, in life, even with issues and events that do seem important to me, I do whatever I can, but so much is completely outside my control, and I have learned not to be overly bothered by those things I cannot control.

phylp phylpwrote:

...Also, in life, even with issues and events that do seem important to me, I do whatever I can, but so much is completely outside my control, and I have learned not to be overly bothered by those things I cannot control.

Oh, I know. At this point I have what I think are well formed opinions, and I'll express my point of view in a place like this, but I'm not the activist I was at one time. It's pointless, really.