Directional/temporary bolts

Couldn't find a thread on this and I'm curious what folks use for directional bolts when rap bolting, especially on overhanging terrain in granite and other hard rock. Trying to keep cost and impact minimal so I'm reluctant to sink and then pull a 3/8" wedge. Not too worried about using small hardware as the overhangs I'm looking at aren't huge - you wouldn't hit anything if it did pop for some reason.

Removable bolts from Climbtech and Petzl are quite the investment. I remember coming across someone going ground-up using concrete screws and I'm finding some online that are self-drilling, as well as 1/4" Tapcons that require a small hole. 30-50 cents per Tapcon seems a better deal than 2-4 bucks on a wedge for each directional. If using these can I buy 1/4" hangers, use rivet hangers, or use a washer on a regular 3/8" hanger?

What have you used and what do you recommend?

My list:

Trad gear

3/8 or 1/2 inch cobra super sleeves. You can remove them.

1/4” studs

3/8” plated studs.

RBs are pretty sweet if you’re doing steep stuff. They go in in 30 seconds, come out in 3. 

Bolting routes isn’t about saving money. Take pride in your work and do as good a job as you can so many others enjoy the route also. 1/4 inch tap cons will break very easily if you over tighten them, would not recommend. The cobra super sleeves are easy to remove once you learn how. 

Zach Harrisonwrote:

1/4 inch tap cons will break very easily if you over tighten them, would not recommend. The cobra super sleeves are easy to remove once you learn how. 

This is very relevant information to my interests and upcoming projects... So uh... How? What's the trick?

Use a larger size hanger so the sleeve is sticking just out of the hole. Loosen the bolt about 2 revolutions and tap the shaft to separate the shaft from the cone. Remove the hanger and shaft and grab the sleeve with needle nose pliers/screwdriver with a notch cut into it to catch the cut outs in the sleeve. Use a magnet to get the cone out. If you tighten the bolt all the way down, however, it will deform the sleeve, only tighten until you  feel it snug up a little bit, might take some practice. Once you get the hang of it you can use them several times.

Great tips, thanks.

@Rprops, when you say 1/4" studs do you mean short sections of 1/4-20 threaded rod? Would you bash those into an over-drilled 1/4-inch hole and then hammer them all the way in + patch when done?

1/4” expansion stud bolts. Hilti Kb3’s on ebay are pretty cheap.
Also, a hole brush is really good at grabbing cobra cones.

Simpson strong tie titen HD

AKA a concrete screw. Just started using them myself so can't say a ton. But $1 a piece and reusable(ish)! Super easy to place and remove (no hole cleaning required, no hammer even). Patch the hole later or re-drill to a larger diameter and place a regular bolt. Would love to see testing about reusing the hole at the same diameter.

Amazing for bolting on lead/developing/exploring.

I think HowNot2 will have a video on them soon. He's got some pull data in the bolting bible.

Nice, looks like I can get a few loosies of the concrete screws and 1/4" studs from Home Depot to try out.

@Kevin it looks like the Titen HD 1/4" require a 3/8" hole - are you drilling out to install 1/2" bolts after? Edit: Nevermind, I was misreading the Titen instructions.

Goes without saying that if I only prioritized saving money, I'd not have bought a drill. I appreciate everyone's advice on good-enough options to do the job I'm asking about, will report back if I discover anything else.

1/4" titens use 1/4" holes.  

3/8" titens use 3/8" holes, are much stronger, less likely to strip out the rock in softer rock, and can be drilled out to 12mm or 1/2" after.  Also, you can use them with some 10mm hangers (like the raumer hanger or the newer fixe hangers), they just thread through.

I've used 3/8" tapcons as well and they work similarly.  I can almost always install simpsons without powertools (in softer rock), I've struggled with tapcons on a couple occasions 

I tried to access the top of a climb to start cleaning it this weekend. Tons of granite blocks that could have theoretically been used as anchors but I was alone and they were a little too spooky so I backed off. 

Then a good friend reminded me that sometimes accessing the top of an intended climb is the sketchiest thing we can do. It's pretty easy to throw in an inexpensive 3/8" stud with a less desirable hanger as an access bolt while you are cleaning, and deciding your final plan. 

Remove it if you don't need it later. 

Leave it if you think you or anyone else will need something to help access that spot at a later time. I have a couple of lines in which I wish I had left something like this. Came back years later and remembered how anxious it made me to access the top anchor. Would have loved to have had something in place, even if it's only for infrequent access. 

tenesmuswrote:

absolutely. The other thing to consider is if anyone would try to tr solo the wall, having an actual access bolt can be super helpful. Also helps for pictures especially if the bolt isn’t inline with what you end up bolting.

@tenesmus Agreed, I've got good hardware in for top access. The temporary stuff I'm curious about is just to direct the rope for cleaning/bolting, where the consequence of failure is minimal.

tenesmuswrote:

have a couple of lines in which I wish I had left something like this. Came back years later and remembered how anxious it made me to access the top anchor. Would have loved to have had something in place, even if it's only for infrequent access. 

This is one of the best use cases for a removable bolt.  If you use a 3/8" concrete screw temporarily, you can usually reuse the same hole with another 3/8" screw later.  Or a hole for a petzl couer pulse, which will probably hold up better to multiple reuses.  

@BigRed, pretty much what everyone else is saying works, depending on what second-tier bolts/hangers or RB's you have laying around. Sounds like you've got a thoughtful approach, which probably means you'll end up with a clean, solid and appropriately equipped climb. 

And fwiw, I am also a big red.

Ignoramus here. What are these RBs everyone is talking about?

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Ignoramus here. What are these RBs everyone is talking about?

Removeable bolts like:

https://www.cmcpro.com/equipment/removable-bolt-anchor/

https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Anchors/COEUR-PULSE-12-mm

Jordan Rogerswrote:

Removeable bolts like:

https://www.cmcpro.com/equipment/removable-bolt-anchor/

https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Anchors/COEUR-PULSE-12-mm

From my experience the climbtech ones have pretty limited reuse, especially if loaded in shear. They get mangled and are a huge pain to get out.

The petzl ones are amazing, similar to placing a cam, easy in and out. Only potential downside is that they require a 12mm hole. 

Lots more discussion here:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116779541/petzl-removable-bolts

I use cheap 3" x 3/8" galvanized wedge bolts that I get from the local hardware store.  Since the final bolts will be Ti glue-ins, I use them for both temporary anchors and directionals.   (Thus the anchor bolts can not fail.)

I over-drill the holes, so that when the glue-ins are done, I can remove the hangers, pound in the bolts flush, and then recess the bolts about 1".   The holes are almost impossible to find afterwards since they fill-in with debris, but you could put a dab of glue and sand in them if you wanted to.   This is much safer and easier than trying to remove the bolts.