Rescue after Rockfall on Freestone (Yosemite) - Avoid or Proceed with Caution

John Clarkwrote:

Play Freebird!!!!

OK...

John Clarkwrote:

You ever hand drilled a multipitch sport route in Valley granite? Not gonna happen, even with Kauk’s blessing and the blessing of a lot of the “upper crusties” in the Valley. Because even the generally accepted rule about FA approval is contingent on any random asshole with a chisel’s (or wrench and hammer) approval.

That’s why they made power drills. WOOT WOOT!

I was proposing to just skip past all of that. Go up. Pry bar off the flakes until there is either good rock to anchor in, or no anchorable rock/no belay. 

Tony Lobaywrote:

I was proposing to just skip past all of that. Go up. Pry bar off the flakes until there is either good rock to anchor in, or no anchorable rock/no belay. 

Good rock like… something that could hold a factor 2 fall onto the anchor? Haha 

Tanner Jameswrote:

Good rock like… something that could hold a factor 2 fall onto the anchor? Haha 

Can that flexyflake hold another?

I'm curious...

Can the people who support adding a bolt in this situation, provide any example in recent history when they were vocally against a different retro-bolting proposal? Similar question to those definitely against adding a bolt here. 

Maybe a better solution would be to just epoxy the flakes in place? If you did it right nobody would ever notice. Not some spooge job like at some limestone chisel fest. Make it nice and concealed all sneaky 

You people talk too much

Just go climb it

Brandon Rwrote:

I'm curious...

Can the people who support adding a bolt in this situation, provide any example in recent history when they were vocally against a different retro-bolting proposal? Similar question to those definitely against adding a bolt here. 

I'm primarily here to oppose crotchety folks shouting repeatedly (and I paraphrase) "We should do it this way because it's always been done that way, kid. I was in Camp 4 in the 70s so don't question me".

And don't support adding a bolt unless several other conditions are met first, which still haven't been met. See my posts on page 4.

But for the sake of showing that my opposition to KW's Rulebook stands on it's own and I'm happy to admit I originally supported adding 4 or 5 bolts to SD and after Kevin DeWeese provided actual evidence that adding a handful of bolts to SD would have done little or nothing to prevent most of the accidents on the route in the past I responded:

Andy Shoemakerwrote:

Thank you for this Kevin.  For me this is the only compelling reason not to make reasonable changes to a classic route.  Changing a Valley uber classic in response to a few accidents per decade, especially given how often the route is climbed, doesn't make sense to me.  And how as you point out, shortening the runouts would not have helped in most cases.  It would be interesting to deep dive into recent accidents to see if anything else turns up.

I'm 51% team no new bolts now.  Someone on the internet has changed their mind.

I still honestly think every other reason (spoils the fun, isn't in good style, should have been done already, FA had their chance, make climbing great again, etc) discussed is weak and 100% subjective and not a good reason to base this kind of decision.  If adding 5 bolts would mean 1 or 2 less rescues each season you have this real meaningful tangible benefit to the climbing community as a whole.   Putting volunteers (or paid staff) at risk because a some folks on MP wants to uphold the status quo... that's not for me, thanks.   I'm thinking of the number of rescue on the 2nd Flatiron and what could be done to reduce the risk to those rescuers, for example.

Or on the Nose, you know that Valley mega classic where there are hardly any bolts and there has been little change in hardware over the last 5 decades.  

John Clarkwrote:

I would know because I read the Holy Scripture , as handed down to man by God through his second son, Tom Higgins. Praised be his name

Non sequiter to this ridiculous thread but since you brought him up: I’m glad Higgie is not forgotten. He was a nice guy with a great smile. The kind of smile that lit up his whole face and made his eyes sparkle. I never knew him well but enjoyed chatting whenever I saw him. 

phylp phylpwrote:

Non sequiter to this ridiculous thread but since you brought him up: I’m glad Higgie is not forgotten. He was a nice guy with a great smile. The kind of smile that lit up his whole face and made his eyes sparkle. I never knew him well but enjoyed chatting whenever I saw him. 

I bet. It’s just his fanatical followers that are (insert appropriate genital reference here)s. 

Andy Shoemakerwrote:

I'm primarily here to oppose crotchety folks shouting repeatedly (and I paraphrase) "We should do it this way because it's always been done that way, kid. I was in Camp 4 in the 70s so don't question me".

And don't support adding a bolt unless several other conditions are met first, which still haven't been met. See my posts on page 4.

I was thinking you were probably the reasonable, non-dogmatic type from some of your previous posts I've read. And as much as those crotchety back-in-my-day types do need some opposition, so do those kids crying to add bolts in every case because safety, or equity, while they fail to see that not every route needs to be brought down to their personal safety standards. I do think that if that "rule book" you mock didn't exist at all though, beautiful, naturally protected cracks would sprout bolts every 5 feet, and otherwise scenic crags would get grid bolted into near circus like status with enough time. 

Brandon Rwrote:

I'm curious...

Can the people who support adding a bolt in this situation, provide any example in recent history when they were vocally against a different retro-bolting proposal? Similar question to those definitely against adding a bolt here. 

I was against retrobolting snake dike as I think part of the appeal is the runout, the climbing is easy and there are good anchors. Also not many of the accidents really would have been prevented by a few more bolts (including the most recent large one).

I don't think this case would be people trying to "bring the climb down to their level", the belay just fell off. 

I also don't understand how having a bolt or two at a single belay that fell off "changes the character of the route". It would still be equally as commiting and impossible to bail, it would still have the heads up climbing that freestone is known for. You'd just have a belay that you could trust to hold a real fall onto the anchor. (Inb4 the flake held a ff2 yada yada). 

The slippery slope argument on this is kind of far fetched.

Kevin (not you W), that was one of your best comments I’ve ever seen. Nice thought process layout. Appreciate the perspective from a modern yosemite adventurer. 

1) Industry standard is don’t add bolts to established free climbs w/o FA approval.

2) How many guys who wanna drill have put any effort into securing that approval?

3) How many of you have assessed the remaining anchor options?

4) The belay didn’t “fall off”. The remaining anchor already held a factor 2 fall.

5) Is it possible a cam or two could be added above and equalized into the anchor that already held a f2 fall?

6) Could belay locations be moved to eliminate need for a bolted belay?

7) The next lead doesn’t call for the gear that belay uses

8) A little extra time and effort to build a belay doesn’t really “make the climb harder than when it was established.”

9) The climb was done first in an era when minimal bolting was the goal and the best style.

10) The route is historic and iconic of that era.

If there’s no way to climb Freestone without a bolt there, and Ron shrugs it off, drill. I’d like to see its character preserved if at all possible, and see climbers put some effort into that challenge. 

I appreciate your voice here KW.  I can see where others are coming from, too, but I'm glad you are making your case.

I really don't know what's best--it's way above my pay grade.  It does seem like everybody should wait until things dry out, and somebody can go up there and play around, bang on rocks, pry a little, place cams, build some anchors, and generally assess the whole thing.  

Then discuss with first ascensionists, and move forward with input from others. 

Kevin Worrallwrote:

1) Industry standard is don’t add bolts to established free climbs w/o FA approval.

2) How many guys who wanna drill have put any effort into securing that approval?

3) How many of you have assessed the remaining anchor options?

4) The belay didn’t “fall off”. The remaining anchor already held a factor 2 fall.

5) Is it possible a cam or two could be added above and equalized into the anchor that already held a f2 fall?

6) Could belay locations be moved to eliminate need for a bolted belay?

7) The next lead doesn’t call for the gear that belay uses

8) A little extra time and effort to build a belay doesn’t really “make the climb harder than when it was established.”

9) The climb was done first in an era when minimal bolting was the goal and the best style.

10) The route is historic and iconic of that era.

If there’s no way to climb Freestone without a bolt there, and Ron shrugs it off, drill. I’d like to see its character preserved if at all possible, and see climbers put some effort into that challenge. 

Very good points.  Well thought out and appropriate for the route in question.

I don’t think that KW is being crusty or grumpy or out of touch by advocating for an accepted standard.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

1) Industry standard is don’t add bolts to established free climbs w/o FA approval.

2) How many guys who wanna drill have put any effort into securing that approval?

KW, can you DM me to help get me in touch with RK or DB?  I will be happy to reach out.

Closest I can find to a direct contact for either is: sacredrok@sacredrok.org

It would be much more appropriate for someone who was up there during or after the recent breakage, with first hand knowledge of the condition to initiate that conversation.  Or at least someone who is now or will be in the Valley in the near future.

I propose that Kevin (KW) and I climb Freestone in a few weeks (once it dries out). What do you say?

We only bring trad gear. Climb up. Take a video, share it here with the group. Then we have all the facts. Then Ron and Dale can decide what they want to do. 

Kevin - you and I worked on some trail out at Eagle Peak in like 2007/2008. 

Drop me a line of you're interested: ice.climbing@gmail.com

Andy - I texted Mark Chapman to see if he has Ron’s contact

Tony - I have a full rotator cuff tear, and I’m off the rock for a while, but thanks for the offer, and thanks for help on the EP trail. It’s probably way overgrown this spring.