Rescue after Rockfall on Freestone (Yosemite) - Avoid or Proceed with Caution

Connor Dobsonwrote:

 Not sure why you are trying to fight these strawmen. 

"but it’s one of the cooler aspects of climbing that it will be there waiting and unchanged whenever parties are strong enough and ready."

Are we in the same thread?

I honestly don’t care about adding a single bolt at that anchor, I don’t think it would change the route at all. I just did a route yesterday that I said should really have a bolt added even though it’s a “mega classic test piece!” Because it’s a king line that will get done twice a year because of how unsafe it is (granite face, no gear the entire route). I just think you should be able to explain very clearly why it’s needed or bolts start growing overnight everywhere.

I don’t believe you want to find a solution here, you’ve been in unrelenting hysterics since this thread started. Instead of running around the room screaming “are you kidding me!” and the hyper emotional arguments, please explain rationally your position. Yes I understand they thought the anchor was flexing on the rappel, but it also caught a factor 2 fall without an issue and held the party properly? Why would they just keep adding more cams (4) to the same “flexing flake”? The situation here is a party pulled a loose flake rock off the wall and it hit a party below who was injured. The leader that pulled the flake seemingly fell onto his own anchor which held fine, had there not been a party below them this thread wouldn’t have been created. It’s also pretty standard and simple to lower your belayer off the anchor to avoid putting yourself into a factor 2 situation in the first place, which evidently wouldn’t have mattered because again the anchor held them both in a F2 fall. I feel like people are forgetting the rockfall hit another party below here and the leading party was fine.

You’d be hard hard hard pressed to find a single multi pitch route in the valley (or most places) that doesn’t have something on it that you could rip off the wall, check out half dome some time! And again in historically loose/wet/scary spring conditions. We did lost arrow direct the day before this happened which is 100ft to the right and conditions were horrific, there’s no universe where I would step within a mile of that route with a party over me and they had 3 parties. We also had an entire belay ledge collapse under us 2 days later. Conditions are likely the most unsafe they’ve been in decades right now, as mentioned above maybe we wait till someone qualified  can go up there and validate the remaining cracks and flakes and make a decision. 

Tanner Jameswrote:

Yes I understand they thought the anchor was flexing on the rappel, but it also caught a factor 2 fall without an issue and held the party properly? Why would they just keep adding more cams (4) to the same “flexing flake”? 

You’d be hard hard hard pressed to find a single multi pitch route in the valley (or most places) that doesn’t have something on it that you could rip off the wall, 

I know if I arrive as the second at a multipitch anchor and my partner built a gear anchor on some flake that is obviously flexy. I would be pissed.  I was taught that anchors should only ever be placed in rock that you have no reason to doubt the integrity of.  Climbing past a flexy, crumbling bit of stone on a route is normal and inevitable as you say.  Building an anchor on the same bit of stone is a huge no-no for me.

"Held one f2 fall in the past" is not on my list of criteria when evaluating anchor building locations.  "Bomber rock" is on my list though (ie, not hollow sounding, not flexing, not crumbing, not detached).

I think, #1 it should be up to RK and DB.  And otherwise if they have no opinion the question to ask is it better to totally change how the route is broken up, move the previous belay and the replacement belay (as KW suggested earlier)?  Or is it better to preserve the route in the FA's layout by adding ONE bolt to supplement the questionable flake? Either one seems like a reasonable approach. I see no need to break up a climb exactly as the FAs did. And if that can be done safely, avoiding adding a bolt- that seems ideal.

I don't think building an anchor on questionable stone just because it held a F2 fall is a reasonable approach, as it violates the very first principle many of us learn about building gear anchors.

Andy Shoemakerwrote:

I think, #1 it should be up to RK and Dale.  And otherwise if they have no opinion the question to ask is it better to totally change how the route is broken up, move the previous belay and the replacement belay (as KW suggested earlier)?  Or is it better to preserve the route in the FA's layout by adding ONE bolt to supplement the questionable flake. Either one seems like a reasonable approach. I see no need to break up a climb exactly as the FAs did. And if that can be done safely, avoiding adding a bolt- that seems ideal.

I agree completely. If someone goes up there and it’s a legitimately unsafe situation that is not conducive to an anchor, and there’s no good placements within reasonable distance to move the belay then add a bolt to keep it the same. Alrighty let’s have a good day everyone!

Tanner Jameswrote:

I agree completely. If someone goes up there and it’s a legitimately unsafe situation that is not conducive to an anchor, and there’s no good placements within reasonable distance to move the belay then add a bolt to keep it the same. Alrighty let’s have a good day everyone!

This is all I have been saying...

I agree with Tanner and Connor and reject Worrall's assertion that adding a single bolt at an established belay with questionable flakes will somehow radically alter the route.

Freestone would probably be a really fun sport climb. I vote for that

WadeMwrote:

Freestone would probably be a really fun sport climb. I vote for that

You ever hand drilled a multipitch sport route in Valley granite? Not gonna happen, even with Kauk’s blessing and the blessing of a lot of the “upper crusties” in the Valley. Because even the generally accepted rule about FA approval is contingent on any random asshole with a chisel’s (or wrench and hammer) approval.

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

Have you?

No, because I drilled a couple bolts for the Free Jericho Wall effort (and one anchor replacement down canyon) and learned an important lesson in why the old timers only drilled 1/4” buttons. 3/8” stainless in granite is a solid 5.12 effort until you are real good

So once upon a time there was a flake belay on the DNB around p8 or 9. When I climbed it in 93 it was ok to anchor off. But that flake slid or moved or something. There were scrape marks from it moving. And then fast forward a few years and wouldn’t you know it.  A couple guys climbing that DNB route annd anchored to that flake. It was fine at one time. But the route had changed. That flake got loose. And when they were there someone fell. And the cams behind that flake pulled out. And two guys fell 800’ to the ground. 

Also someone could go up there and crowbar off the loose flakes and see if they can get down to something more solid. 

God damn it feels good to live in the south

Tony Lobaywrote:

So once upon a time there was a flake belay on the DNB around p8 or 9. When I climbed it in 93 it was ok to anchor off. But that flake slid or moved or something. There were scrape marks from it moving. And then fast forward a few years and wouldn’t you know it.  A couple guys climbing that DNB route annd anchored to that flake. It was fine at one time. But the route had changed. That flake got loose. And when they were there someone fell. And the cams behind that flake pulled out. And two guys fell 800’ to the ground. 

Section 2.2.1 Paragraph 2 of the Rulebook clearly states: "No amount of human flesh/blood or natural geologic exfoliation shall be used as justification for deviation from the rules as described in Section 1.1. Traditional Rock Climbing as practiced at the time of ratification of the Rulebook loses all value if not for substantial risk of loss of limb and life. Deviation from the rules shall never be acceptable to mitigate risk, so as to not besmirch the honor of those who came before, being wholely opposed to weak, soft, non-manly, pansy practices in the climbing community writ-large."

"Amen."

Did I get that right KW?

Andy Shoemakerwrote:

Section 2.2.1 Paragraph 2 of the Rulebook clearly states: "No amount of human flesh/blood or natural geologic exfoliation shall be used as justification for deviation from the rules as described in Section 1.1. Traditional Rock Climbing as practiced at the time of ratification of the Rulebook loses all value if not for substantial risk of loss of limb and life. Deviation from the rules shall never be acceptable to mitigate risk, so as to not besmirch the honor of those who came before, being wholely opposed to weak, soft, non-manly, pansy practices in the climbing community writ-large."

"Amen."

Did I get that right KW?

You forgot to add “as laid forth by Tom Higgins”, but otherwise I think you nailed it

Looking forward to aiding Freeblast after the bolt is added!!

John Clarkwrote:

You forgot to add “as laid forth by Tom Higgins”, but otherwise I think you nailed it

0/10 - Clearly just an attempt to better your chances of winning your own bingo game. Give the rest of us a chance.

And anyway- how would you know if I nailed it?!  Did you spend ANY time hanging out in Camp 4 with Bridwell or Breedlove or Graham?!

Andy Shoemakerwrote:

0/10 - Clearly just an attempt to better your chances of winning your own bingo game. Give the rest of us a chance.

And anyway- how would you know if I nailed it?!  Did you spend ANY time hanging out in Camp 4 with Bridwell or Breedlove or Graham?!

I would know because I read the Holy Scripture , as handed down to man by God through his second son, Tom Higgins. Praised be his name

grug gwrote:

Looking forward to aiding Freeblast after the bolt is added!!

This thread is about FreeSTONE, not Freeblast.

Marc801 Cwrote:

This thread is about FreeSTONE, not Freeblast.

Play Freebird!!!!

Tony Lobaywrote:

Also someone could go up there and crowbar off the loose flakes and see if they can get down to something more solid. 

Youtubing this seems like a great way to bring everyone on this thread together and should unite us all.

Marc801 Cwrote:

This thread is about FreeSTONE, not Freeblast.

Whatever gumby.