Retro bolt Snake Dike

I honestly don't really care whether Snake Dike is retro bolted or not, but a compromise solution occured to me and I'm curious how people will react to it.

Make all added retro bolts hangerless like Ausi carrots, with a modern bolt of course. This way those that want the commitment of no new bolts simply don't bring any removable hangers. There are multiple brands that sell single wire nuts so the temptation of slinging a nut can also be eliminated. Those that do want the added safety simply bring the appropriate equipment. The need for gear beyond quickdraws might also help drive home the point that it still isn't a sport climb. This idea could also work with removable bolts instead, but on low angle slab the holes might be prone to filling with debris over time.

Ha ha.

The Carrot Bolt: An Australian Icon

But, then again, probably not. Or, as we say in Australia, “Yeah, nah…”  

Bill Lawrywrote:

Ha ha.

The Carrot Bolt: An Australian Icon

Those carrot bolts are pretty stressful for the uninitiated.  I carried them in my chalk bag and would freak out every time I had to place one.  The locals down there joke about the ping heard after visitors drop the hangers.  If the goal is to better equip Snake Dike for really strong climbers and Australians carrot bolts are perfect.

I sold my hangers; not buying those again. 

BAdwrote:

I wonder how many parties have been JUST FINE with the current bolting?  Seriously, thousands?

I wonder how long people keep repeating the same couple of points until this thread ends? It’s like getting to the center of a tootsie pop, I tell ya!

1. Has anyone suggested exactly where the new 5 bolts would be placed?

2. Does cutting a 100’ runout to 50’ on rock 3 grades below the (reasonably protected) crux really fix anything?

3. How many people have fallen on those pitches?

From 'on freeclimbing,' by Doug Robinson. . . "Better that we raise our skill than lower the climb."

'nuff said.

Steve Williamswrote:

From 'on freeclimbing,' by Doug Robinson. . . "Better that we raise our skill than lower the climb."

'nuff said.

Sometimes it would be better if we just lowered the anchors.

Nawmean?

Cheers!

Cpt Obvious

If you were a first time visitor to the valley, what climbs would you do to assess your readiness for Snake Dike? As others mentioned there is great honor in honing skills on your own climbers’ journey !

Believe it or not, we are coming to some measure of consensus here, that is, the bolts are not so much the issue as first appeared. Route finding, multi pitch skills, and taking care of yourself on a long day out in the high country figure more prominently in these accidents.

BAdwrote:

I wonder how many parties have been JUST FINE with the current bolting?  Seriously, thousands?

I wonder how many parties got to the top and said "why the f were those runouts necessary?!"

I wonder how many parties got into really hairy terrain and narrowly avoided tragedy.

I wonder how any parties used modern gear that flies in the face of the FAs style?

We could wonder all day about a number of things

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Searching the AAJ Accidents I was able to find these accidents:

2015: Angela Uys died while setting up to rap the route from the pitch 3 anchors and falling from there

2014: Four climbers called for help from the top of half dome after climbing Snake Dike and being unable to locate the cables due to them being covered in snow and ice

2012: Two climbers started up a route that they thought was snake dike but was not and ended up falling causing multiple broken bones and internal damage. 

2011: A climber falls on the traverse under the roof on the first pitch after not referring to the topo and pulls their only gear leading to broken bones

I couldn't find any other accidents attributed to Snake Dike or attempts at Snake Dike on Google, which isn't saying there aren't more, but nothing that was submitted to the AAJ or "merited" a news report that Google could scour

Thank you for this Kevin.  For me this is the only compelling reason not to make reasonable changes to a classic route.  Changing a Valley uber classic in response to a few accidents per decade, especially given how often the route is climbed, doesn't make sense to me.  And how as you point out, shortening the runouts would not have helped in most cases.  It would be interesting to deep dive into recent accidents to see if anything else turns up.

I'm 51% team no new bolts now.  Someone on the internet has changed their mind.

I still honestly think every other reason (spoils the fun, isn't in good style, should have been done already, FA has their chance, make climbing great again, etc) discussed is weak and 100% subjective and not a good reason to base this kind of decision.  If adding 5 bolts would mean 1 or 2 less rescues each season you have this real meaningful tangible benefit to the climbing community as a whole.   Putting volunteers (or paid staff) at risk because a some folks on MP wants to uphold the status quo... that's not for me, thanks.   I'm thinking of the number of rescue on the 2nd Flatiron and what could be done to reduce the risk to those rescuers, for example.

Or on the Nose, you know that Valley mega classic where there are hardly any bolts and there has been little change in hardware over the last 5 decades.  

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

• A warming hut at the summit

You've got to admit it sounds nice. A nice aperitif and soup before descending the cables?

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

1. From Beck's piece linked in the OP, "Ideally, I would like to see five protection bolts where it is run out. This is similar to the routes on Dozier Dome in Tuolumne."  The assumption seems to be that he's referring to the upper pitches with the single or no bolts between anchors (and where there have been no accidents due to the bolt spacing in the years since the FA). Unclear as to whether one of those bolts would go to the 2nd pitch where the most recent accident occurred considering it's only 60' from anchor to anchor and there's already a bolt and a .75 placement. 

The SuperTopo for the climb has 5 "R" sections. Placing 1 per segment seems "logical" and might be what he means.

If you were a first time visitor to the valley, what climbs would you do to assess your readiness for Snake Dike?

Goodrich pinnacle, both sides, The Cow, both sides, Grack routes, Harry Daley Route - all on the Glacier Point Apron. The Royal Arches, South Face of North Dome. After Six, After Seven, and Nutcracker. Munginella, The Hanging Teeth, Selaginella, The Commitment. You want to feel good on 5.9 slab before you lead Snake Dike.

Andy Shoemakerwrote:

I wonder how many parties got to the top and said "why the f were those runouts necessary?!"

I wonder how many parties got into really hairy terrain and narrowly avoided tragedy.

maybe people should wonder about those before leaving the ground?

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Goodrich pinnacle, both sides, The Cow, both sides, Grack routes, Harry Daley Route - all on the Glacier Point Apron. The Royal Arches, South Face of North Dome. After Six, After Seven, and Nutcracker. Munginella, The Hanging Teeth, Selaginella, The Commitment. You want to feel good on 5.9 slab before you lead Snake Dike.

Excellent list, Kevin !

Hanging at the Apron in the late afternoon when it goes in shade is the best. You can also TR a 5.10 slab next to the first pitch of Harry Daley.

South Face of North Dome is on my list as well. I think you can backpack in from Tuolumne and sleep on top of the dome!

Mt Starr King was one of my first slab leads in Yosemite too. Don't remember much pro, but the easy side is about 5.0 slabbin. A fine outing!

What I'm getting at here, is that as a beginner it is not so easy to get perspective and choose objectives that are appropriate for you. It's a balance between challenging yourself and building skills, but not getting in too deep and "going ham" as we say in the great white north.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

After posting that, did you lean back in your chair feeling proud of your strawman?

Sounds like you have lost your sense of humor.

Austin Donisanwrote:

The SuperTopo for the climb has 5 "R" sections. Placing 1 per segment seems "logical" and might be what he means.

I would agree with your assessment that the five "R" sections are where the FA is requesting the 5 bolts be added, one bolt per "R" section.

...and those 5 bolts would help someone from getting off-route where the latest accident happened how? 

According to the article, the FA has been asking for the additional bolts for many years. I'd guess the recent accident triggered a reporter to reach out to him thus giving him the opportunity to ask again. To quote him directly from the article... 

"I asked other parties to add more bolts. I even put in a plug for this when I was speaking at Oakdale a few years ago. Ideally, I would like to see five protection bolts where it is run out."

"So I am once again asking the climbing community, add some more bolts to the Snake Dike."

He's asking for help.

Anna Brownwrote:

According to the article, the FA has been asking for the additional bolts for many years. I'd guess the recent accident triggered a reporter to reach out to him thus giving him the opportunity to ask again. To quote him directly from the article... 

"I asked other parties to add more bolts. I even put in a plug for this when I was speaking at Oakdale a few years ago. Ideally, I would like to see five protection bolts where it is run out."

"So I am once again asking the climbing community, add some more bolts to the Snake Dike."

He's asking for help.

Once again, it wouldn't have prevented any of the accidents on Snake Dike.

Matt Nwrote:

...and those 5 bolts would help someone from getting off-route where the latest accident happened how? 

Anna Brownwrote:

According to the article, the FA has been asking for the additional bolts for many years. I'd guess the recent accident triggered a reporter to reach out to him thus giving him the opportunity to ask again. To quote him directly from the article... 

"I asked other parties to add more bolts. I even put in a plug for this when I was speaking at Oakdale a few years ago. Ideally, I would like to see five protection bolts where it is run out."

"So I am once again asking the climbing community, add some more bolts to the Snake Dike."

He's asking for help.

Anna, Adding five bolts would not have prevented the recent accident. The accident was due to inexperience and fatigue.

Anna, Adding five bolts will not prevent future accidents. There will still be the potential for serious if not fatal falls.

Anna, Adding five bolts would not change the overall characteristics of the climb. Still hefty runout sections.

Not advocating adding five or any bolts to the route. Only noting that Eric's request would not change anything significantly. So with respect to Eric, his request is moot in terms of the real issue - inexperienced climbers getting on the route. Can't fix stupid. That is, gravity is a heartless bitch and dumbing down the world for the lowest common denominator makes for a boring world.

Earlier in the week I talked to one of the people who did the third ascent. He just laughed, walked off, and went up 5.10 route.