Retro bolt Snake Dike

Our sport has never had a static tradition that must be upheld.  We have been evolving from the get go.

Thus far our sport has evolved with a decent amount of respect for tradition, history, nerve and human will. But now more than ever we can see the urge to bolt over those things, in the name of convenience and safety. 

Resist. The only way tradition has any value is by being practiced.

“Real” climbing. Discuss

Simple, Captain Obvious

Real climbing is on real rock, as opposed to fake rock.

Runouts, like on SD, make real climbing really exciting.

Additional protection bolts were not placed at the time of the FA because of financial and time limitations, not because they didn’t feel they were needed at the time. The FA is begging the climbing community to add them. I’d guess he’d place them himself if he was able. 

I'm beginning to think that the FA's opinion only matters when they want to keep something dangerous. Otherwise they're just another punter trying to dumb things down for all the would be hardmen out there.

Think of the children!!!!!!!

Adding bolts changes the nature of the climb. Skipping the retro-bolts you don't want to clip is not a viable solution. This has been discussed ad nauseum in the past about other climbs.

IMO Snake Dike is a great climb because of the aesthetics, fun nature of the climbing, and that it gets you up Half Dome, a magical place. Like many trad climbs higher risk can be a component of the challenge, but is not needed for a great climb. Added risk does make Snake Dike better IMO, when you're on the pitch 3-5 dikes and way run out but it's super solid climbing it's fun and make it more interesting. 

If bolts were added I'd bet there would be more traffic because it would be capable by more people. I'd climb it either way but people who have avoided it before because of the run outs would get on it.

A real con to adding bolts is people will think it's safer (and it may be safer with respect to the really long falls possible) but it would still be an R rated climb with runouts unless you added maybe 20 bolts. 5 bolts would reduce the longest runouts, but leave many medium (e.g. 40') sized runouts. People would hear bolts have been added and think they could get on it, when really it would make no difference to the level of experience and preparation you should have before you get on it.

I think the main reason we're discussing this is one of the FA team wants to add bolts. Otherwise this question would not even be being contemplated. But FA wishes on a decades old climb aren't the only consideration. There's a lot of factors that make this one a grey area IMO. If it was Southern Belle I'd be "hell no" the whole point of that climb was a scare fest. Snake Dike was a strong team went up and did a moderate classic, realized they underequipped it for the average person who wanted to climb it and allowed retrobolts on the second ascent and now one FA members still thinks more should be added. But it's been in it's current state for decades...

Andy Shoemakerwrote:

I think there’s a case to be made that the current state of the route IS recklessly skipping available pro. 

Yes, that’s why I propose to legalize Retro-Development, allowing people to improve the route if done so in the original style.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Snake Dike is a great climb because of the runout nature of the climbing.   Let’s face it, that’s why it’s such a popular climb.  Subconsciously or consciously that’s why so many people line up to do it.   

So if someone bolts it up then it'll have less crowds?   

Andy Shoemakerwrote:

We all already choose how to keep ourselves safe on the stone

You're missing the point entirely. When you do a run out climb, you are subjecting yourself to an experience where you do not get to chose how to keep yourself safe - you are committed. Adding bolts that you can opt to skip changes that dynamic entirely - in one case you are forced to be bold, in another case there is a choice. 

Andy Shoemakerwrote:No one is telling you they’ll see your ascent any different if you skip them or clip them. This is a construct in your head.

Are you really thinking about your experience on a route in the context of how other people will view it? It's  about the subjective experience bro. Obviously that's not true in all cases for all people, but the point im trying to make is about the subjective experience. 

Andy Shoemakerwrote:Some folks, who maybe are parents want to do all they can to stay safe on the stone, would love to avoid 100’ run outs.

And the response to this, for the 1000th time - if a route is too dangerous for you, don't climb it. Not everything has to be bolted up to the lowest common denominator. 

Its popularity certainly has less to do with it being an easy line up one of the most magnificent granite domes on the planet, and more to do with the sick easy but consequential runouts. Surely.

Edited for Kevin <3

Andrew Ricewrote:

So if someone bolts it up then it'll have less crowds?   

It will still be a great climb but it won’t be the same climb.  

Some place value on long runnouts. Some place value on safety.

Arguments are ongoing about how many carabiners should be used on a top rope master point. I suppose the long runout crowd finds a single non-locker more appealing?

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Snake Dike is a great climb because of the runout nature of the climbing.   Let’s face it, that’s why it’s such a popular climb.  Subconsciously or consciously that’s why so many people line up to do it.   The climbing is just ok but ad the manageable risk and the fact it’s on the side of the most recognizable rock in the world and you got a great climb.   Ad bolts and people will still line up to do it but it won’t be for the same reasons.  

What utter nonsense.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

People solo Snake Hike in the moonlight whilst tripping.

How hard can it be?

Not everyone has good LSD and a full moon, though. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

Not everyone has good LSD and a full moon, though. 

And not everyone has done the route previously and is a 5.11 climber. 

Pro retrobolt point: it's a 5.7 and will attract novice climbers.

Con retrobolt point it's a 5.7 and the runouts are on 5.4 or lower. The runouts are in character for difficulty IMO. If the runouts were 5.6 I'd think it as was underbolted.

A good point made earlier was being okay with adding one bolt at a point where multiple people have gotten hurt. Is there anything like that on Snake Dike? The serious accidents I've heard of have all been kind of random, not big falls on the biggest runouts.

Anna Brownwrote:

Additional protection bolts were not placed at the time of the FA because of financial and time limitations, not because they didn’t feel they were needed at the time.

If so, why in 57 years of more time and finances could the bolts not have been added?

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Searching the AAJ Accidents I was able to find these accidents:

2015: Angela Uys died while setting up to rap the route from the pitch 3 anchors and falling from there

2014: Four climbers called for help from the top of half dome after climbing Snake Dike and being unable to locate the cables due to them being covered in snow and ice

2012: Two climbers started up a route that they thought was snake dike but was not and ended up falling causing multiple broken bones and internal damage. 

2011: A climber falls on the traverse under the roof on the first pitch after not referring to the topo and pulls their only gear leading to broken bones

I couldn't find any other accidents attributed to Snake Dike or attempts at Snake Dike on Google, which isn't saying there aren't more, but nothing that was submitted to the AAJ or "merited" a news report that Google could scour

So to actually "fix" the route solely based upon the accidents we'd need:

• Neon signs pointing to the second pitch anchors
• Permanent fixed lines for bailing from the top to the bottom
• A warming hut at the summit
• A paved path to the base with a sign stating "Start climbing here"
• One of Beck's proposed 5 bolts being placed before the roof to mark where to start traversing

Or more importantly, to "fix" where there have been multiple accidents, we don't need to do anything because there aren't any spots like that. 

As I suspected the bolts aren’t supported by the accident history on the route. Thanks for researching. But the snarky fixes for some fatal/serious accidents are lame.

Andy Shoemakerwrote:

I’m imaging being in camp no more bolts and being on route. I get to a bolt that I dont need because its 5.4 slab and I decide its not needed for me to proceed with the margin of safety I want. So I climb on by and leave the draw on my loops.
[snip] But I do not see the argument that added pro will water anything down.

I can see your point when one’s rewards from climbing are only about the experience on the climb itself.  For some of us, that is all that matters.

For others there is the added experience of anticipation, preparation, testing one’s preparedness by committing to the climb, and afterwards the release of endorphins when thinking about it post climb for days, weeks, even years for the really big climbs.

I wonder how many parties have been JUST FINE with the current bolting?  Seriously, thousands?

I don't think snake dike should be retrobolted.  eric beck is just one of three FAers.  if they were all alive, and all wanted to retrobolt it, then I am ok with it.  I DO think the first ascensions should have super heavy weighted opinions.  but since it is just one, not even a majority, I say leave it as is.  

That is terrible that this lady got so hurt on this route.  But that alone is not a legitimate reason to retrobolt.  climbing IS dangerous.  some routes are especially dangerous.  they require a head game, a mastery of mind in the face of danger.  that has big value.  this mindset can be hard to understand to gym climbers breaking into the outdoors.  suffice to say that people should not fill entitled to safely lead any route they want.  some routes are for the bold, brave, and experienced climber to go have an adventure on.  there are plenty of other well protected routes to do.