Make me feel better about one-hand ABD belay

Tradibanwrote:

Have you met the American public?

Lol. Aren’t the Euro’s the ones that mostly don’t hold the rope anyway? 

Alex Fletcherwrote:

This video demonstrates why I can’t get behind it when folks say the can’t figure out how to Gri Gri belay or say “it’s so much different” than a tube/ATC device.

All belaying is the same. Hold the (brake) rope with a hand (or both). Always. Or tie a blocking knot behind your device. Use two hands to give and take slack (one on brake, one on lead).

Hold on to the rope. Slide it through the device. 

Hmm, if you think Petzl's "feed slack quickly" method is the same as using a tube, what can I say other than I disagree.  While I seem to have a high capacity to post on GriGri threads, my interest in arguing with anyone is pretty low.  Based on observing high-level, "all the time" type climbers, I feel confident in saying most of them use the "feed slack quickly" method frequently, but again, if someone else sees it differently, that's fine.  

https://youtu.be/Ib1dCSDlx3o

Alex Fletcherwrote:

I think it’s a fair point that the “geometry jamming” devices are pretty intuitive and ergonomic.

But in my experience nothing works as well or as versatile as a Gri Gri. 

I’d argue an Alpine Up is by far more versatile and, once you’ve conquered the learning curve, works better than the GG. That’s just my subjective opinion though

J Ewrote:

I’d argue an Alpine Up is by far more versatile and, once you’ve conquered the learning curve, works better than the GG. That’s just my subjective opinion though

This is one of the reason why many people specifically like grigris so much - they are just more used to them. 

J Ewrote:

I’d argue an Alpine Up is by far more versatile and, once you’ve conquered the learning curve, works better than the GG. That’s just my subjective opinion though

Sure, every device requires learning, but a belay device that requires one to conquer the learning curve somehow doesn't seem like a good idea. That’s just my subjective opinion though.

Marc801 Cwrote:

Sure, every device requires learning, but a belay device that requires one to conquer the learning curve somehow doesn't seem like a good idea. That’s just my subjective opinion though.

Conquer the learning curve is literally just another way of saying learning to use the device. And really, it’s just a matter of giving the manual a once-over and learning the movement to disengage the assisted brake. It’s such that, if you used the device incorrectly, you climber would be unable to continue climbing because it would be stuck locked.

On the other hand, if you don’t learn to use the GG correctly and go for the gorilla grip you can kill someone

J Ewrote:

Conquer the learning curve is literally just another way of saying learning to use the device.

Not really. 'Conquer' implies that it's significantly difficult to learn as opposed to 'read the manual and learn the movement'.

J Ewrote:

I’d argue an Alpine Up is by far more versatile and, once you’ve conquered the learning curve, works better than the GG. That’s just my subjective opinion though

Better at what? Things that require two ropes?

I have one and love it, but it's not great at anything you'd typically encounter on your average sport climbing day of belaying someone working a route in assisted mode, and it's worse than a standard tube in "dynamic" mode. 

One of the things that makes the Gri Gri so darn useful is how low friction it is to pull rope through the device. From what I’ve now researched about the Alpine Up it has the same high friction rope pull of any other device. It relies on a round stock carabiner. The Gri Gri diameter of the cam makes the rope slide so much easier. Anyone that uses these devices day in and day out will accumulate overuse injuries of the elbows and shoulders. Therefor the reduced friction of pulling the rope through a Gri Gri (particularly belaying a follower on multipitch) is a huge advantage.

It also makes things like improvised 3:1 hauling a lot easier.

This Alpine Up doesn’t have these advantages and from what I’ve seen it has more complex features. Like being able to choose whether to have it in ABD mode or Tube mode. That seems like a mistake waiting to happen.

Gri Gri only has one hole for the carabiner. It’s only loaded one way. Climber on top, brake on bottom. And all you have to do is keep your Brake Hand on the Brake Rope. It’s pretty freakin simple. Feeding slack is not that hard.

Most of the time when you can’t get the device to feed smoothly, it’s the leaders fault for pulling up rope too fast. A new belayer needs to come up to speed when using a Gri Gri. An impatient leader is just making the whole thing more frustrating for the belayer and for themselves.

Pull the rope slowly and your partner will feed rope smoothly.

Yank on the rope and it’ll lock. It’s almost like that’s how it was designed. 

PWZwrote:

Better at what? Things that require two ropes?

I have one and love it, but it's not great at anything you'd typically encounter on your average sport climbing day of belaying someone working a route in assisted mode, and it's worse than a standard tube in "dynamic" mode. 

I’ve found it to do everything the grigri does but better with my 9.4mm. It’s not as liable to lock up when feeding slack quickly ime. I like the tactile feedback of the device locking. Then, ofc, the dynamic mode for non-sport.

Add onto that dual strand rappelling.

It’s also nigh impossible to mistake the ABD mode for dynamic mode. The dynamic mode hole actually requires a little finagling to get the biner in, where the abd hole is giant and unmistakable

as far as low friction, to me it feels like: vergo>alpine up>GG. I actually switched away from the GG specifically because the friction and belay style were aggravating my tendinitis 

J Ewrote:

I’ve found it to do everything the grigri does but better with my 9.4mm. It’s not as liable to lock up when feeding slack quickly ime. I like the tactile feedback of the device locking. Then, ofc, the dynamic mode for non-sport.

Add onto that dual strand rappelling.

It’s also nigh impossible to mistake the ABD mode for dynamic mode. The dynamic mode hole actually requires a little finagling to get the biner in, where the abd hole is giant and unmistakable

as far as low friction, to me it feels like: vergo>alpine up>GG. I actually switched away from the GG specifically because the friction and belay style were aggravating my tendinitis 

That’s interesting. How smooth is rappelling with it? Does it slide at all or lock fully? When I used to have a Mammut Smart Belay device I would continuously creep down the rope even if I meant to be stopped.

My GriGri 2 started doing that eventually too, but that’s because it was worn out from rappelling/lowering with it so much. I did retire that one.

How well does the alpine up do in 3:1 hauling or in use as an ascending device?

Alex Fletcherwrote:

That’s interesting. How smooth is rappelling with it? Does it slide at all or lock fully? When I used to have a Mammut Smart Belay device I would continuously creep down the rope even if I meant to be stopped.

My GriGri 2 started doing that eventually too, but that’s because it was worn out from rappelling/lowering with it so much. I did retire that one.

How well does the alpine up do in 3:1 hauling or in use as an ascending device?

The first 10 ft might require a little feeding, then it’s smooth sailing. I would expect to go quite as fast as with an ATC, but I find the rate when fully ‘open’ to be just right.

It doesn’t slide while locked unless you pull the lever, so it’s essentially a rappel device with a built in third hand. You could (but shouldn’t) go completely hands free and the up will hold you (at least at my weight 150-160lbs).

I haven’t tried it with hauling or ascending, as I use my vergo for that (being the lowest friction ABD out there), though I suspect it should work just as well as the grigri for ascending. Not sure about hauling.