Make me feel better about one-hand ABD belay

Don Frijoles wrote:

The OP didn't ask about personal preferences for belay devices, he's concerned about reliability of the grigi autolocking.

The only evidence we have of a grigri "failing" is a YT video with a hand loosely wrapped around the brake strand, never applying any braking, actively holding the cam open while a climber is supposedly falling (falling climber never shown in the video) on a route that apparently has certain characteristics that allows the climber to fall will less force than a normal fall (route not shown in the video) but still falling hard enough to be "fatal" (per the title of the video, although no one was actually hurt or died.)

Nevermind that this video was published by someone that sells content about climbing, and a video about a "near fatal incident" is certainly going to get more views than a mundane video about proper belaying technique...

Don, there was another thread that you were in, where you brought up the exact same thing. There were quite a few videos and reports. Plus, grigris are not as safe as you think. Grigris account for 14 percent of users, and 5 percent of accidents. Atc users account for 56 percent of users, and cause 46 percent of accidents. This data is flawed, more people use atcs outdoors where more accidents happen no matter what, but it still shows how it’s not black and white.

Balance the "data" provided by this one video against the widespread daily usage of the grigri globally, outdoors and in in every climbing gym, where failures rarely exist outside of rumors in conversation and references to online threads that reference online threads about accidents that people have heard about... I'd say there is overwhelming data that shows if your read the instructions on a grigri and follow them attentively, you'll be fine.

The same could be said about ATCs 

Edit: 

This is the source.

https://zenandtheartofclimbing.com/lead-belaying-grigri/

This is the old thread, with a few videos.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/123692295/atc-ban?page=7#ForumMessage-123709044

Higher up, some other failures were also mentioned that you never commented on, in both forums.

Don Frijoles wrote:

Like I said, stories about stories.

Why can't anybody provide direct links to specific accident reports?

The article I posted had links to other accidents, a study of accidents, and the thread before also had an accident that you ended up claiming that all of the witnesses were lying to protect the belayer.

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

you might not believe this but in climb and use a ABD with no hands! still catches falls 

Yep! Almost every time an ABD will catch a fall, I usually have one hand feeding and the other on my phone taking butt shots.

Alex Fletcherwrote:

I think it’s a fair point that the “geometry jamming” devices are pretty intuitive and ergonomic.

But in my experience nothing works as well or as versatile as a Gri Gri. 

The grigri is more versatile for sure but is inferior in just about every way for the purpose of lead belaying. It's heavier, more expensive, harder to use correctly, and MUCH easier cause a serious/fatal accident. Compared to the best of the geometry jamming ABDs (the Pilot), the feed is no smoother. I'll concede that it is slightly nicer to hold a hangdogging leader and lower with a grigri...which in no way makes up for its other shortcomings IMO. 

L Kapwrote:

The grigri is more versatile for sure but is inferior in just about every way for the purpose of lead belaying. It's heavier, more expensive, harder to use correctly, and MUCH easier cause a serious/fatal accident. Compared to the best of the geometry jamming ABDs (the Pilot), the feed is no smoother. I'll concede that it is slightly nicer to hold a hangdogging leader and lower with a grigri...which in no way makes up for its other shortcomings IMO. 

Your theory that the GriGri is more dangerous than geometry-based ABDs is contradicted by the only evidence I've ever seen, which is an old European study that breaks out accidents by belay device.  (The specific geometry devices were ClickUps and Smarts; I'm not sure what some of the devices mentioned are.)  These aren't the best links, but I only spent a minute looking this time and see the following, which is consistent with my general memory.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111785588/belay-devices-worthwhile-studies-into-which-are-safer

https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/111235000/table-from-beerbreeders-european-data-stash-on-belay-devices-and-accidents

To put it another way, I believe there have been plenty of accidents with geometry-based belay devices, just as there have been with Grigris.  

The "Hard is Easy" guy mentions defeating the Click-Up in particular by holding each side of the rope nearly parallel to quickly feed out slack--if the climber falls then, and the belayer doesn't change the orientation of the ropes, apparently you're on the ground.  While the specific actions are different, the general issue is the same as with the GriGri--to get the device to feed out slack nicely, you need to take some action that interferes with the optimal baking of the device.

GriGri users who even attempt to follow the instructions have no problem belaying safely.  That's shown in that while there have been plenty of drops involving GriGris, I'm not familiar with a single drop where the belayer even claims (rightly or wrongly) that he or she was trying to use the device according to the instructions.  (I used to mention that accident that happened in Cayman Brac a number of years ago that was seemingly unexplained, but someone posted to a different thread and said he was aware that it was user error that, for whatever reason, the victim never publicly posted.  I can't say for sure that's true, but it's believable in that the victim at first claimed that the belayer, his young daughter, was doing everything right and that he was going to try to get to the bottom of the accident, but then never posted anything further.)  

pfwein Weinbergwrote:

Your theory that the GriGri is more dangerous than geometry-based ABDs is contradicted by the only evidence I've ever seen, which is an old European study that breaks out accidents by belay device.  (The specific geometry devices were ClickUps and Smarts; I'm not sure what some of the devices mentioned are.)  These aren't the best links, but I only spent a minute looking this time and see the following, which is consistent with my general memory.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111785588/belay-devices-worthwhile-studies-into-which-are-safer

https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/111235000/table-from-beerbreeders-european-data-stash-on-belay-devices-and-accidents

To put it another way, I believe there have been plenty of accidents with geometry-based belay devices, just as there have been with Grigris.  

The "Hard is Easy" guy mentions defeating the Click-Up in particular by holding each side of the rope nearly parallel to quickly feed out slack--if the climber falls then, and the belayer doesn't change the orientation of the ropes, apparently you're on the ground.  While the specific actions are different, the general issue is the same as with the GriGri--to get the device to feed out slack nicely, you need to take some action that interferes with the optimal baking of the device.

GriGri users who even attempt to follow the instructions have no problem belaying safely.  That's shown in that while there have been plenty of drops involving GriGris, I'm not familiar with a single drop where the belayer even claims (rightly or wrongly) that he or she was trying to use the device according to the instructions.  (I used to mention that accident that happened in Cayman Brac a number of years ago that was seemingly unexplained, but someone posted to a different thread and said he was aware that it was user error that, for whatever reason, the victim never publicly posted.  I can't say for sure that's true, but it's believable in that the victim at first claimed that the belayer, his young daughter, was doing everything right and that he was going to try to get to the bottom of the accident, but then never posted anything further.)  

 

The problem is that Gri users generally don’t use it as recommended because the official technique is cumbersome. 

The Gri is in badly need of a redesign to make it easier to use correctly.

pfwein Weinbergwrote:

Your theory that the GriGri is more dangerous than geometry-based ABDs is contradicted by the only evidence I've ever seen, which is an old European study that breaks out accidents by belay device.  (The specific geometry devices were ClickUps and Smarts; I'm not sure what some of the devices mentioned are.)  These aren't the best links, but I only spent a minute looking this time and see the following, which is consistent with my general memory.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111785588/belay-devices-worthwhile-studies-into-which-are-safer

https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/111235000/table-from-beerbreeders-european-data-stash-on-belay-devices-and-accidents

To put it another way, I believe there have been plenty of accidents with geometry-based belay devices, just as there have been with Grigris.  

Thanks, but if you read the thread, the statistically-minded folks says that none of the numbers are significant except for grigri and tube-style devices. Sample sizes not large enough.

The "Hard is Easy" guy mentions defeating the Click-Up in particular by holding each side of the rope nearly parallel to quickly feed out slack--if the climber falls then, and the belayer doesn't change the orientation of the ropes, apparently you're on the ground.  While the specific actions are different, the general issue is the same as with the GriGri--to get the device to feed out slack nicely, you need to take some action that interferes with the optimal baking of the device.

For the record, the click-up isn't the same as the pure geometry-jamming devices like the Pilot, Jul, Smart, and Rama. The click-up has a little internal lever making it a mechanical assisted brake.  

GriGri users who even attempt to follow the instructions have no problem belaying safely.  That's shown in that while there have been plenty of drops involving GriGris, I'm not familiar with a single drop where the belayer even claims (rightly or wrongly) that he or she was trying to use the device according to the instructions.  

Let's say you're right and that a grigri is totally safe if the instructions are followed. Any yet, so many people do not belay as instructed, for reasons that have been previously discussed.

ETA - I find myself in the strange position of agreeing with Tradi. 

Don Frijoles wrote:

Like I said, stories about stories.

Why can't anybody provide direct links to specific accident reports?

I didn't write up the ones I saw at PRG Oaks and CRG Glastonbury. But, if you would like, I could contact the dropees for you. 

It's not too late to get your COVID-19 vaccine antidote. 

Thanks, but if you read the thread, the statistically-minded folks says that none of the numbers are significant except for grigri and tube-style devices. Sample sizes not large enough.

You didn't get the memo? This is MP. The natives don't speak logic, and they can read but rarely do.  

Don Frijoles wrote:

Um no. Ezra posted links that have nonspecific references to stories about accidents. You just have to follow his links, read the articles, and interpret them as he did, and there's your proof. 

I mean what are you expecting, actual direct links to specific, credible stories? Doesn't work that way!

We have to prove to the OP that the GriGri is drop city, so keep talking about those stories that talk about those stories on those other threads that have stories about the proof.

https://www.climbing.com/news/jim-ewings-scary-fall-and-recovery/

This was also in the thread. You also knew that this was in the thread, but chose to ignore it.

You should also use some evidence. Gyms that allow ATCs are also not drop city.

Edit to reply to pfwein:
 The Revo is a good device, but it has been known to damage ropes in falls, and takes a while to engage. I personally think that the geometry based devices, like the atc pilot, or the click up, are good, if you want a little more safety with a new belayer. I use the Mad Rock Lifeguard for soloing, and like it with some ropes. The feed can vary a lot from rope to rope.

L Kapwrote:

For the record, the click-up isn't the same as the pure geometry-jamming devices like the Pilot, Jul, Smart, and Rama. The click-up has a little internal lever making it a mechanical assisted brake.  

The spring-loaded "little internal lever" on the Click-Up does not mechanically assist in braking.  It is there for the purpose of preventing unwanted premature braking.

It works very well for its intended purpose.  This has been my preferred belay device for the last decade (when I'm not using their Alpine Up on double ropes). 

acrophobewrote:

The spring-loaded "little internal lever" on the Click-Up does not mechanically assist in braking.  It is there for the purpose of preventing unwanted premature braking.

It works very well for its intended purpose.  This has been my preferred belay device for the last decade (when I'm not using their Alpine Up on double ropes). 

Dude! What the fuck are you thinking!? A “spring-loaded internal lever!?!?  Do you not know that one cannot trust a machine!?!?!!??!  You sir, are but a merchant of death!!!!!!!!!!!’

acrophobewrote:

The spring-loaded "little internal lever" on the Click-Up does not mechanically assist in braking.  It is there for the purpose of preventing unwanted premature braking.

It works very well for its intended purpose.  This has been my preferred belay device for the last decade (when I'm not using their Alpine Up on double ropes). 

Right.  So we can take the old study and lump Click-Ups and Smarts together as geometry-based ABDs, then the data will be "statistically significant" and we'll have "proved" that geometry-based ABDs are more dangerous than GriGris (and, strangely enough, apparently more dangerous than tubes!)   

For what little it's worth, I don't really believe the old study proves much of anything other than it's not true that geometry-based ABDs are somehow infallible or should be regarded as "safer" than GriGris.  I believe GriGris and geometry-based ABDs are extremely safe when used by anyone who is even trying to use them according to their instructions as opposed to various ad-hoc techniques that allow for quickly and easily throwing out slack but which can defeat braking (i.e., gripping the GriGri with the entire hand and/or failing to even attempt to grip the rope to brake a fall, or constantly holding both strands of the rope parallel with geometry-base ABDs).  

One device that might actually be safer than anything else: Wild Country Revo.  I haven't read or heard about any drops involving that device.  I haven't used a Revo and lots of reviews are not super-positive based on various factors (e.g., not good for hangdogging, which is pretty much a typical session for many of my not very good sport climbing sessions).   But it may be a truly safer device.  

pfwein Weinbergwrote:

Right.  So we can take the old study and lump Click-Ups and Smarts together as geometry-based ABDs, then the data will be "statistically significant" and we'll have "proved" that geometry-based ABDs are more dangerous than GriGris (and, strangely enough, apparently more dangerous than tubes!)   

For what little it's worth, I don't really believe the old study proves much of anything other than it's not true that geometry-based ABDs are somehow infallible or should be regarded as "safer" than GriGris.  I believe GriGris and geometry-based ABDs are extremely safe when used by anyone who is even trying to use them according to their instructions as opposed to various ad-hoc techniques that allow for quickly and easily throwing out slack but which can defeat braking (i.e., gripping the GriGri with the entire hand and/or failing to even attempt to grip the rope to brake a fall, or constantly holding both strands of the rope parallel with geometry-base ABDs).  

One device that might actually be safer than anything else: Wild Country Revo.  I haven't read or heard about any drops involving that device.  I haven't used a Revo and lots of reviews are not super-positive based on various factors (e.g., not good for hangdogging, which is pretty much a typical session for many of my not very good sport climbing sessions).   But it may be a truly safer device.  

I'd love to see a copy of that study in English because I don't read German. I would like to know what the accidents were that they counted for the Smart, which is the only geometry-jamming device I saw listed in the table. Was it a dropped climber from holding the device open accidentally - which, as I've said previously, is unlikely - or something like loading the device backwards, not locking a carabiner, giving too much slack, giving a hard catch that broke an ankle, or other belayer errors that have nothing to do with the device?

Have you used a Pilot, Jul, Smart, or Rama? I'm not sure it's even possible to hold the strands parallel while belaying or to hold the brake open in the event of a fall. If you try it, please video.

I haven't used or examined a click-up personally but unlike the geometry-jamming devices listed above, it doesn't use a thumb catch to feed slack quickly and seems substantially different in how it operates.

Click up video

Pilot video

Careful guys. If you go too pro-geometry Jim Titt will appear with a lot of graphs.

L Kapwrote:

I'd love to see a copy of that study in English because I don't read German. I would like to know what the accidents were that they counted for the Smart, which is the only geometry-jamming device I saw listed in the table. Was it a dropped climber from holding the device open accidentally - which, as I've said previously, is unlikely - or something like loading the device backwards, not locking a carabiner, giving too much slack, giving a hard catch that broke an ankle, or other belayer errors that have nothing to do with the device?

Have you used a Pilot, Jul, Smart, or Rama? I'm not sure it's even possible to hold the strands parallel while belaying or to hold the brake open in the event of a fall. If you try it, please video.

I haven't used or examined a click-up personally but unlike the geometry-jamming devices listed above, it doesn't use a thumb catch to feed slack quickly and seems substantially different in how it operates.

Click up video

Pilot video

I have used (and owned) a Smart 2, ClickUps (both the original version and 2nd generation), and a GigaJul, and have used (but not owned) an ATC Pilot.  In my view, the operation of a ClickUp is very similar to the aforementioned devices, and it is a "geometry-jamming device."  While it doesn't exactly have a "thumb catch," its pinching operation is the same.  But I'm not speaking as an engineer or expert on these devices, that's just my impression.  It's been prob over a year since I've used the other devices, so I'm going on memory.

As to whether a climber can be dropped with something like a Smart due specifically to holding the device "open" and/or the rope strands parallel and not by backward or misthreading:  I believe the answer is "yes" based on Internet reports I've read over the years, but it's not something I have any personal knowledge of.  See the following thread for example:  

https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/aqo8lm/mammut_smart_1_or_20_question_about_catching_a/

Also, as I noted in a previous post in this thread, a Hard-is-Easy video commented on a drop or near drop with a ClickUp.  While one could take the position that a ClickUp is different from a Smart, I don't think (but can't prove) the differences are significant on this point, and the Hard is Easy drop is consistent with the Smart drops mentioned in the reddit link (including the links, some of which go back to the MP poster "bearbreeder," who is the guy I vaguely recall posting about Smart failure modes).

I know I'm being a little repetitive, but just to be super clear, I am not at all suggesting that any of the geometry-based devices are dangerous, I'm just trying to explain the basis for my belief that there's no good reason to think they're safer than GriGris, as I believe they can all be misused in a way that is sort of logical from the user's perspective--to be able to super smoothly and quickly pay out slack--but is dangerous.

(Someone might wonder why I've used so many belay devices:  I went through a phase where I was looking for a GriGri alternative because I don't love that belaying with a GriGri is quite different from belaying with a tube, and I like the concept of a belay device that you use essentially just like an ATC but is auto-locking.  Also, I was looking for an ABD that can handle two ropes both for climbing with doubles and for rapping.  Eventually, I decided I prefer the operation of a GriGri to geometry ABDs, but I'm not at all opposed to them.  I am sort of opposed to "plain old" (not ABD) tubes.  For example, I just back from a trip to EPC, a great place but one with above-average rockfall.  While I was climbing, a climber on a different route dislodged a good-sized rock.  It shattered on the way down, and one of the fragments hit my belayer.  He was lucky it was in the shoulder and not in the face, and he was able to maintain a safe belay, but it was a close call.  And I'm at an age where just spontaneously having a heart attack or other medical emergency is possible, the risk increases every year, and I'm not really planning on quitting climbing.  So I've always been on the lookout for the "perfect" belay device.  The GriGri isn't perfect, but it's what I've liked the most and settled on for now.)

Marc801 Cwrote:

Thanks for this, Marc. Compelling.

Anybody know this guy? We should ask him to consider doing the same test with a BD Pilot. 

Desert Rock Sportswrote:

Careful guys. If you go too pro-geometry Jim Titt will appear with a lot of graphs.

Jim Titt is always welcome, graphs or no graphs. 

This video demonstrates why I can’t get behind it when folks say the can’t figure out how to Gri Gri belay or say “it’s so much different” than a tube/ATC device.

All belaying is the same. Hold the (brake) rope with a hand (or both). Always. Or tie a blocking knot behind your device. Use two hands to give and take slack (one on brake, one on lead).

Hold on to the rope. Slide it through the device. 

Alex Fletcherwrote:

This video demonstrates why I can’t get behind it when folks say the can’t figure out how to Gri Gri belay or say “it’s so much different” than a tube/ATC device.

All belaying is the same. Hold the (brake) rope with a hand (or both). Always. Or tie a blocking knot behind your device. Use two hands to give and take slack (one on brake, one on lead).

Hold on to the rope. Slide it through the device. 

Have you met the American public?