On Sighting or Projecting

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Ive been climbing for roughly 45 years, Im 56 now and have never really gotten into projecting.  Partly due to the era I started climbing in, sport climbing was just in its infancy and trad climbing was really all I knew.  As I got into sport climbing in the 80's into the mid 90's I unfortunately carried my "leader must not fall" mentality with me into sport climbing and as a result my level of climbing has always been low compared to others.  I could on sight 5.11 plus and an occasional 5.12 but that was it and now that I am aging and have kept the same mentality my on sight range for sport is hard 5.10 or mid 5.11 on a great day.  I know what the answer to my round about question is, start projecting and you will get better.  I just can't bring myself to do it, I feel like its wasting a day of climbing, why spend a day or multiple days on the same route when I can be putting up new routes or knocking off a bunch on a free day.  I always felt like your on sight was the truest gauge of a climber but Id also like to climb a lot of routes that are at the moment out of reach.  

Anyone else wrestle with this first world problem?

Yes, projecting will make you stronger but life is too short to be a sport climber.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

I’d rather spend time buffing out the approach trail to a new area than spend days trying to do the hardest lead there. You, and everyone else, can enjoy the trail every time you come and go, a hard red point is only good for your tick list

But I’m a freak, and I’m ok with that…

I was maybe gonna try to troll you harder but this is admirable. Trail work is by far the worst part of developing. You get no credit, you need an entire extra set of tools, no one realizes the trail was made by someone, it kills your back (I can't even imagine being your young age of 100), and the work never really ends. 

This thread is a little depressing... I don't project to climb harder, I project because some routes are sick enough and intricate enough that they're worth climbing twice, or 10 times, or 100 times.

I still love going to a new area and trying to onsight everything... but sometimes I try to onsight a route and get my ass kicked, but the entire time I've having so much fun with the movement and I just want to get on it again and see if I can do it better... the only problem is convincing my partner to come back.

Kevin- there is nothing wrong with working a climb till you can do it all in one go. Sort of like learning how to play guitar- get the difficult parts down then put the whole thing together.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

... a hard red point is only good for your tick list

It's good for my soul, but to each their own. I've done all forms of climbing; trad, sport, bouldering, multipitch and of course single pitch. Nothing comes close to the feeling of clipping chains on a max level project for me. I try not to get too wrapped up into only projecting, but hot damn is it fun

It's good for my soul, but to each their own.

Don’t think I don’t get satisfaction from working a route to red point. I’ve probably put up a thousand sport pitches, and have usually worked anything in the 12 range before sending.

My point was more that trailwork benefits every climber, not just the guy “clipping chains”, and I enjoy the process more than basically any other climber I know. Most climbers won’t even make the effort to kick a loose rock to the side on their way to their hangdog sesh.

A well surveyed and built trail is a beautiful thing.

That sounds like people in rifle who fall off the same move(s) for years

Kevin, good on you for the trail work. It’s much appreciated 

Dane Bwrote:

It's good for my soul, but to each their own. I've done all forms of climbing; trad, sport, bouldering, multipitch and of course single pitch. Nothing comes close to the feeling of clipping chains on a max level project for me. I try not to get too wrapped up into only projecting, but hot damn is it fun

Climbing something so perfectly and in the flow state after not even being able to do individual moves on it is a very cool experience. 

I'd rather project than hard onsight personally. 

To project is to to strive for something that approaches perfection, to onsight is to see how badly you can climb while still getting away with it. 

That's what it feels like to me atleast. 

Nobody says you have to "send" a route before moving on to something else, likewise you can repeat a route you've onsighted, even if you end up un-sending...just saying. I suppose it's a little different w/ FA.

I personally don't find onsighting a bunch of easy-for-me routes all that satisfying: some see it as variety, I see it being pretty repetitive w/o the learning process. Either way, sport onsighting is just like a lot of arbitrary games: it's pretty obvious what being good @ onsight soloing can do for you, but sport onsighting, so what, you can tick off the warmup cliff faster?

"On-sight climbing is the ultimate, it's the perfection, it's putting it all together and making the best ascent that you can..."

Lynn Hill

David Ywrote:the only problem is convincing my partner to come back.

I think this an important aspect that hasn't been talked about in this thread...having a partner or regular group that is all on the same page, in the same place, with the same climbing goals. You really have to treasure those periods of your life.

Especially in areas where the rock makes it harder, that have e.g. a narrow grade range, with easier or harder routes being rare, or lots of scattered crags where it's hard to wander between different sectors so everyone can try what they want.

David Y wrote:the only problem is convincing my subman to come back.

Fixed that for ya

I am in my late 40’s, been climbing for 20 years, and I still love a good project. These days projects are often on gear climbs so it isn’t about gear vs sport climbs. Like folks who wrote before, I don’t project to climb harder. I project because I love the process, taking a climb that seem to be at my limit, working it out like a puzzle, and perfecting it, and sending. With that send, it feel so high. I feel like this is similar to playing the piano. I was a music major, and the process is similar. You take a piece of music you can’t play, give it hours and love it deserves, and when you get it, it is pure magic.

I also love to onsight or climbing climbs that doesn’t lend itself to projecting such as long multi pitch, but I think projecting will always be in my climbing life.  These days, I keep getting injured and having to take time off, so I keep having to project my old projects though. But that’s ok. I feel like I am projecting for the first time on them LOL.

I say do what makes you tick. Many more ways to train to get stronger than projecting. Climbing is supposed to be fun. 

https://gripped.com/news/jorge-diaz-rullo-onsights-two-5-14a-routes-in-a-day/

Thought this article was apt:

"Adam Ondra, who’s accumulated a staggering three 5.14d, 23 5.14c, 66 5.14b, 101 5.14a, and 158 5.13d onsights."

clee 03mwrote:

If projecting is mastering a prepared piece, onsighting is nailing an improvised solo.

Dan Booklesswrote:

https://gripped.com/news/jorge-diaz-rullo-onsights-two-5-14a-routes-in-a-day/

Thought this article was apt:

"Adam Ondra, who’s accumulated a staggering three 5.14d, 23 5.14c, 66 5.14b, 101 5.14a, and 158 5.13d onsights."

Didn't Ondra admit they mostly weren't true onsights as he had seen the climbs on film first?

I am way too impatient to project anything. If I can’t get it I will pull on gear to get up or stick clip my way to the top.  I admire people who have  drive to project climbs, but it’s not my jam

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

projecting something a number grade above your onsight is how you get better which is why iv never gotten better 

I'm not so sure. I've projected (and red pointed) routes 2 full number grades better than my max on-sight, yet have stagnated as a climber. I think pushing on-sight grade is a better way to improve.

While I have climbed, and put new routes up, far and wide, I was never one that enjoyed the slog to get to the crag.  And putting in new trails is just that slog magnified.  With that in mind, I have generally just gone climbing and expected to mostly succeed on whatever route we were trying after a try or two.  However, there came a time that we wanted to climb a route a little above our ability and so we put in the time to learn to climb the route.  On the 6th weekend of effort we succeeded.  I have never again spent that kind of time 'projecting' a route.  I'm not sure I have ever spent more than 2 days on any other route.  I think part of it is that except for that one time, no route has ever been that important to me to take time away from actually climbing to 'work' a route.

So mostly I am with you Kevin but there was that one time...