On Sighting or Projecting

Ive been climbing for roughly 45 years, Im 56 now and have never really gotten into projecting.  Partly due to the era I started climbing in, sport climbing was just in its infancy and trad climbing was really all I knew.  As I got into sport climbing in the 80's into the mid 90's I unfortunately carried my "leader must not fall" mentality with me into sport climbing and as a result my level of climbing has always been low compared to others.  I could on sight 5.11 plus and an occasional 5.12 but that was it and now that I am aging and have kept the same mentality my on sight range for sport is hard 5.10 or mid 5.11 on a great day.  I know what the answer to my round about question is, start projecting and you will get better.  I just can't bring myself to do it, I feel like its wasting a day of climbing, why spend a day or multiple days on the same route when I can be putting up new routes or knocking off a bunch on a free day.  I always felt like your on sight was the truest gauge of a climber but Id also like to climb a lot of routes that are at the moment out of reach.  

Anyone else wrestle with this first world problem?

Nope, I'm 100% project guy.

I don't wrestle with it. I  just accept it.

I'm 51 and I started climbing when I was 18.  I projected quite a bit in my 30s. I have always valued my onsight grade over my project grade.  In the end, projecting will raise your onsight ability.

Now I love developing new routes.  I tend to stick in the 10 range but every now and then I poke into the 11s.  Sometimes I surprised myself with a good send and sometimes I get stuffed.  I'm planning on hitting a few of my favorite "old" 5.11s this season and will probably have to work them some.

I tend to follow my joy.  It's fun for me to put up new routes for others to enjoy and do it with my dearest friends.

I guess I'm not sure exactly what your goal is? 

Regain your ability to onsight harder routes again, or find a way to enjoy projecting so that you can climb some harder routes you have an eye on?

In either case, I think hard-for-you bouldering would really help. 

If it's the former, I doubt projecting is really going to help, unless you treat it as "bouldering on a rope". 

That is, just try sequences you can't do until you can do them, but don't worry about redpointing. Just like a boulder problem, but on a rope.

Use the experience to get the training you want. 

Some people prefer this to real bouldering, since you don't have to hit the ground each time you fall. Personally, I don't mind the ground impacts with lots and lots of pads, but you may differ.

If you really want to go the projecting direction, keep in mind that projects don't have to be long ordeals. 

What do you typically do with failed onsights? 

If you usually just walk away, maybe try turning them into third go tries- 1) fall off your onsight 2) go up again, but work out each section carefully, including the 'easy' bits 3) go for the redpoint. 

I think you'll find there is still enough mystery and fun on the send go to keep your attention.

There are lots of skills to projecting which maybe aren't worth learning unless you actually enjoy the process.

I feel you. I have always preferred onsight climbing. The buzz of visiting a new area and climbing all the good moderate routes.

Redpointing on a bad day is sometimes barely more fullfilling than going to work. At least at work I get paid to bang my head against the wall, and go home having made minuscule progress in some months long project, and also my hands aren't bleeding afterwards.

Of course the rock itself and the area you're  in has a massive influence on people's climbing style. Lots of great easy climbing on good rock, people climb trad. Steep chosspiles, there's nothing else to do but start handogging that choss.

I would think if you genuinely enjoy the process of onsighting for most of your climbing days, then stick with that and don’t worry about the numbers or grades, especially if you feel a day projecting is a day wasted. Keep smoking onsights and rack pitches.

If you do want to climb harder and onsight harder, and you’re not enjoying your climbing because of your self-perceived weakness, well, then you already know what you have to do.

I’ve been climbing for well over fifty years. I get the most satisfaction out of doing new climbs, I don’t really care how hard they are, I just seek out quality rock on unclimbed formations. I started moving in that direction when I was still in my teens. The first route I ever worked was the Bircheff Williams, in 1973, and it took me 10 or 12 tries, but I led it clean that day. I felt like I had cheated though, and never worked a route or hung to rest for a couple of decades after that. What felt like cheating to me was SOP for hard routes ten years later.

I’ve always thought you can raise your lead limit by climbing lots of pitches just below it, but progress is slow that way compared to throwing yourself repeatedly at something too hard to onsight. Most modern climbers are pushed by the competition to red point high ratings at all costs. The question is : what are your motivations in climbing?

Since I started developing sport routes over the last 30 years, I’ve done my share of hangdogging, but I still don’t really like the process, and I think the most days I’ve ever spent on a single pitch before red point is about 5. The red point and the finished product is the reward, and for certain lines with certain aesthetics, it’s worth it to me to hang and work it out, mostly so I can move on to the next untouched route or area.

I’ve never been motivated by the rating, the rep, or even the difficulty of a route - only by the line, the position, its features and its quality. That’s why I don’t climb indoors, and why I never climbed 5.13. But there are a ton of good routes to do below that level.

Kevin Worrall wrote:

Since I started developing sport routes over the last 30 years, I’ve done my share of hangdogging, but I still don’t really like the process, and I think the most days I’ve ever spent on a single pitch before red point is about 5. The red point and the finished product is the reward, and for certain lines with certain aesthetics, it’s worth it to me to hang and work it out, mostly so I can move on to the next untouched route or area.

I’ve never been motivated by the rating, the rep, or even the difficulty of a route - only by the line, the position, its features and its quality. That’s why I don’t climb indoors, and why I never climbed 5.13. But there are a ton of good routes to do below that level.

wow I sent what was a long unsent route (we presume it is 14a)in like 4 days. Can I claim a Worrall star now?

You can claim whatever you want to claim, pupster

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

I always felt like your on sight was the truest gauge of a climber 

I AGREE with this sentiment.  I think it's truly incredible when, for example, Ondra Onsighted Just Do it, or nearly onsighted the Salathe.  That being said, the only reason he can onsight at such an impressive level is precisely because he spends most of his time projecting.  (and he probably also practices onsighting / flashing)

I think when your onsight grade is like 5.10d and your projecting 5.13a, maybe there is a bit of a mismatch and you need to learn the art of onsight climbing.

Do what you like? Not sure the chest puffing about onsighting is really necessary if it this is a genuine question. 

If you want to learn the joys of projecting, do it. If not, don't. 

@Connor that's spinning this into the most negative way possible. There is lots of chest thumping in the climbing community, and relatively speaking this barely moves the needle.

@OP: I can completely commiserate with what you describe. But now I really enjoy projecting. When you have exhausted the reasonable onsights or flashes at all of your weekend warrior stomping grounds, the transition becomes fairly intuitive: repeat a bunch of stuff, or try something much harder... The latter can be a lot of fun. 

I used to wrestle with it a bit and now am just happy to get out with a trusted partner and climb whatever is best that day, cruising easy ones, clipping bolts, bouldering, developing etc.. Lots of my partners BITD started projecting, mostly sport, and I was always more on the side of onsighting new climbs. Climbing new stuff definitely is what keeps me the most psyched to climb, unlocking the puzzle onsight, using the brain and the body all at once. Projecting always was like TRing a familiar route to me, I can't muster the psyche to sit in one spot for too long. I will say that I do project routes I fail at, just over seasons/years not obsessively right away.

I never really wrestled with it. I have always just pursued the climbing that interests me. The only real projecting I have done is in the realm of first ascents, and even there primarily bouldering.

I got to a point where I was no longer willing to risk injury (tendons and such). In some sense its the Big Wind Down, but so what? I don't even chase my own numbers anymore. You've paid your dues Kevin. Please continue to so whatever climbing appeals to you.

Hi Kevin! Here’s my answer ( sorry for the scrawl, I’m in a hotel room). Phyl

Mark E Dixon wrote:

What do you typically do with failed onsights? 

If you usually just walk away, maybe try turning them into third go tries- 1) fall off your onsight 2) go up again, but work out each section carefully, including the 'easy' bits 3) go for the redpoint. 

This!

If you enjoy onsighting, and the projecting brings to mind multi day drudgery of going back to the want climb over and over, don’t just jump into this kind of multi day projecting.

Do your 2nd/3rd try same-day sends. you definitely do get better by working out the moves and linking them together, and it’s not that much of a time commitment… Eventually you would hit something where you ALMOST sent it on the 3rd try, and it just happens to be a route you also really enjoyed, and you would think, “I really should come back to this one!”

lo and behold, you have a 2-day project  :)

But ultimately, why do any of this? You climb for pleasure. Do what you want! I would imagine that after so many years of climbing you would run out of routes to onsight in your home area, and I can’t imagine even the most prolific route developer bolting routes at the pace of making enough routes for themselves to onsight, not unless you like the pace of one climbing day for multiple bolting days.

But if you do…

Connor Dobson wrote:

Do what you like? Not sure the chest puffing about onsighting is really necessary if it this is a genuine question. 

If you want to learn the joys of projecting, do it. If not, don't. 

LOL, I never thought of barely on sighting 5.11 is chest puffing

I’d rather spend time buffing out the approach trail to a new area than spend days trying to do the hardest lead there. You, and everyone else, can enjoy the trail every time you come and go, a hard red point is only good for your tick list

But I’m a freak, and I’m ok with that…

Kevin Worrall wrote:

Since I started developing sport routes over the last 30 years, I’ve done my share of hangdogging, but I still don’t really like the process, and I think the most days I’ve ever spent on a single pitch before red point is about 5. The red point and the finished product is the reward, and for certain lines with certain aesthetics, it’s worth it to me to hang and work it out, mostly so I can move on to the next untouched route or area.

This is my passion now, new routes in untouched areas, California is a big place with LOTS of untouched stone.  I started putting up new routes at Williamson Rock in the early 80's and took a long break when I got into whitewater kayaking but in the past 8 years I have been on a mission to find new areas.  I think that's the thing that drives me now and am willing to sacrifice the grades for it.  I think I start questioning myself when I see guys much older than me crushing higher grades but I guess I am fine with that.  Thats their passion and this is mine.

phylp phylp wrote:

Hi Kevin! Here’s my answer ( sorry for the scrawl, I’m in a hotel room). Phyl

Haha, that's great Phyl, thanks