Simulrapping mishap

Zach Baerwrote:

I enjoy simulrapping. It makes rapping waaaaay more fun,...

I totally fail to see what makes it "waaaaay more fun ".

Tradibanwrote:

You’re missing the point. Brad is just a high profile example of an experienced climber who made a mistake. 

A more accurate statement is "Brad is a high profile example of and experienced climber who willingly chose to forgo common safety measures on a regular basis."

The fact that it (finally) caught up to him is all the more reason to emphasize the ABSOLUTE necessity of NEVER skipping said safety checks/measures, regardless of skill/experience level. Alternatively, be willing to deal with the (potential) consequences, if/when they happen

The point is that on paper safety checks are fine and dandy but in reality people cut corners, forget safety checks, and make mistakes.

At a certain baseline level, mistakes can't be allowed to occur, and (hopefully) people should understand this before they begin dabbling in climbing.

The answer to that question is “No”, you wouldn’t pull the ropes up and tie the knot, you would go with the flow because you trust your partner that it’s “all good”.

I've most certainly pulled the rope back up and knotted it. I've also left the pull side be (with no knot) on routes where I'm familiar with the lengths. Who my partner is is irrelevant.

Christian Heschwrote:

A more accurate statement is "Brad is a high profile example of and experienced climber who willingly chose to forgo common safety measures on a regular basis."

The fact that it (finally) caught up to him is all the more reason to emphasize the ABSOLUTE necessity of NEVER skipping said safety checks/measures, regardless of skill/experience level. Alternatively, be willing to deal with the (potential) consequences, if/when they happen

At a certain baseline level, mistakes can't be allowed to occur, and (hopefully) people should understand this before they begin dabbling in climbing.

I've most certainly pulled the rope back up and knotted it. I've also left the pull side be (with no knot) on routes where I'm familiar with the lengths. Who my partner is is irrelevant.

Why won’t you let me save your life?

At a certain baseline level, mistakes can't be allowed to occur, and (hopefully) people should understand this before they begin dabbling in climbing.

I dunno about this Christian. At a certain base level its impossible to fully understand risk management until you move past the dabbling point. Take airline pilots as an example. I absolutely agree with the notion that when we are operating in environments where mistakes have potentially fatal consequences, to ourselves and or others, such as climbers, pilots, working with hazardous industrial chemicals like chlorine gas, there must be checklists (mental or otherwise) and rigor to always going through the checklist, always always always. Even then we can see mistakes creeping in. But without them mistakes are eventually assured.

I should have said “some” mistakes can’t be made. i.e., you can’t forget to tie in and start climbing, then “take.”  You can’t forget to load your rap device, then lean back on rap (untethered).
Those would be some of the baseline things, whereas ensuring knots in the end might be slightly “less” important than baseline, but still 95%+ as important as loading device correctly, etc. 

and Traddy, you can swoop in to save me any day <3

Tradibanwrote:

I value my life over all other “values” in climbing.

The reason the experienced people in this thread are against simul-rap is because we know things don’t always go to plan and the human brain doesn’t always operate perfectly rational.

Don’t tell your partners that!  

I often half joke while rapping off of sketchy anchors that the person that has more value to society goes first with the backup.  That generally puts me last with my partners as I’m getting old, not a parent, a guy and uneducated. Not a lot to offer at this point except beta on climbing rocks…

And I do simul rap all the time.  Pretty much exclusively with my normal partners.  And I pull up the rope 95% of the time and clip it to me.  One trick you can do that does save time is tie a knot wherever you catch it while it’s falling.  Clip that to ya and then rap.  Often that knot is low enough in the rope to make it to the next anchor.  If it’s not I rap to the knot and then pull up the remaining rope and tie it to me, which is often not that much rope.   I do this even when I’m not simul rapping

I’m also a fan of callouts and touching, similar to how a pilot would operate.  I physically touch the important parts of the system and say its name.   Something like this,  touch the anchor, “say good anchor”, touch the knot (if you are using two ropes) and say “good knot”, follow the rope to my device,  check if device is threaded properly and biner locked, then say “locked and loaded”.  My partner does the same, then we both say “ready”. Whole process takes 10 seconds.  

I also wouldn’t make the argument that simul rapping is as safe as normal rappelling but there are systems that can be used to mitigate some of the dangers.  Normal rappelling also isn’t as safe as rapping with a backup belay but most people still choose to rappel without one.  I wonder why that is?  My guess is most people value a quicker system over the increased safety.  

I simply dont see any benefit on simulrapping. I dont see it being faster and it add so many more things to fuck up. 

Wictor Dahlströmwrote:

I simply dont see any benefit on simulrapping. I dont see it being faster and it add so many more things to fuck up. 

Its too advanced for you. Don't do it. 

Christian Heschwrote:

I should have said “some” mistakes can’t be made. i.e., you can’t forget to tie in and start climbing, then “take.”  You can’t forget to load your rap device, then lean back on rap (untethered).
Those would be some of the baseline things, whereas ensuring knots in the end might be slightly “less” important than baseline, but still 95%+ as important as loading device correctly, etc. 

and Traddy, you can swoop in to save me any day <3

The supernatural is something that isn’t supposed to happen, but it does happen.

           -Tradiban

For some reason I keep thinking of the Carlin quote...

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

This thread is a fascinating study in people drawing arbitrary lines in the sand and wanting to impose them on everyone else. I don't see anyone arguing for access systems levels of redundancy and safety here. Don't you know that your whole life depends on that one belay device and one rope being set up correctly?

Like I said in my comment up-thread -- I don't care if YOU don't want to simul-rap, and I won't force you to if you climb with me...but what makes this issue different from someone wanting to climb on gear instead of bolts, or run it out through the easy terrain?  Those DO add risk, and in the latter case constitutes "being in a particular situation and having a choice of two procedures" as far as I'm concerned, but I don't think rgold would scold me for choosing not to sew up 5.6 if I'm comfy on it.

Will Jwrote:

For some reason I keep thinking of the Carlin quote...

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

This thread is a fascinating study in people drawing arbitrary lines in the sand and wanting to impose them on everyone else. I don't see anyone arguing for access systems levels of redundancy and safety here. Don't you know that your whole life depends on that one belay device and one rope being set up correctly?

Like I said in my comment up-thread -- I don't care if YOU don't want to simul-rap, and I won't force you to if you climb with me...but what makes this issue different from someone wanting to climb on gear instead of bolts, or run it out through the easy terrain?  Those DO add risk, and in the latter case constitutes "being in a particular situation and having a choice of two procedures" as far as I'm concerned, but I don't think rgold would scold me for choosing not to sew up 5.6 if I'm comfy on it.

Google Goran Kropp for insight into running out “easy” terrain.

Will Jwrote:

For some reason I keep thinking of the Carlin quote...

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

This thread is a fascinating study in people drawing arbitrary lines in the sand and wanting to impose them on everyone else. I don't see anyone arguing for access systems levels of redundancy and safety here. Don't you know that your whole life depends on that one belay device and one rope being set up correctly?

Like I said in my comment up-thread -- I don't care if YOU don't want to simul-rap, and I won't force you to if you climb with me...but what makes this issue different from someone wanting to climb on gear instead of bolts, or run it out through the easy terrain?  Those DO add risk, and in the latter case constitutes "being in a particular situation and having a choice of two procedures" as far as I'm concerned, but I don't think rgold would scold me for choosing not to sew up 5.6 if I'm comfy on it.

You seem to be confused about this thread.  Nobody is imposing their views or saying that simul-rapping shouldn't be allowed.  They are expressing their opinions that it is a bad idea.

The difference between simul-rapping and climbing on gear is that there is a benefit to climbing on gear - opening doors to rad routes.  There is no benefit to simul-rapping unless you need the counterweight due to the lack of an anchor.

play stupid games, win stupid prizes.  Knowing how to simo rap is a good idea. using that method when it is absolutely necessary is fine. you will be extra viligant. Simo rapping all the time because your think your one of the cool kids is silly and adds extra unnecessary risk. 

Mikey, you are one of the cool kids so its genuine and you play on really big stuff. . I like your call out system.  I preach Be methodical in stressful situations.  Yes that lighting storm is headed our way but if we FCK up this rappel we won't have to worry about getting zapped. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Simo rapping all the time because your think your one of the cool kids is silly and adds extra unnecessary risk. 

This seems to be a common argument made by people who don't simulrap to discredit people who do. I simulrap 99% of the time, and it's not to be cool, it's because it is a significantly more efficient, faster, and logistically much easier way of rappelling. 

If you don't think this or know this to be true, it's because you likely haven't spent any time dialing a simulrap system. Of course anybody can enjoy climbing/rapping however they please, but if you see people simulrapping and immediately think, "those people must think they're so much cooler than me" that problem lies inside of your mind, and not inside the mind of the people you're looking at.

Tradibanwrote:

Google Goran Kropp for insight into running out “easy” terrain.

This unfortunate accident had nothing to do with running out easy terrain http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_GoranKropp.htm

Sounds more like his gear pulled and a  carabiner broke, possibly because he used sport draws on a trad climb. 

 This accident resulted from a series of combined incidents. Kropp was relatively inexperienced at placing natural gear and, though a powerful athlete, was at his lead limit. None of the combined incidents mentioned have anything to do with running out easy terrain.

Tim McCabewrote:

This unfortunate accident had nothing to do with running out easy terrain http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_GoranKropp.htm

Sounds more like his gear pulled and a  carabiner broke, possibly because he used sport draws on a trad climb. 

 This accident resulted from a series of combined incidents. Kropp was relatively inexperienced at placing natural gear and, though a powerful athlete, was at his lead limit. None of the combined incidents mentioned have anything to do with running out easy terrain.

Read between the lines Tim. 

Eric you have no clue what i do or don't have dialed.  I am very well versed in how the cool kids get a tolerance for risk that is simply not necessary for the average climber.  many of the same techniques that are vital for speed records and monster objectives are downright stupid for most recreational climbing applications. Is what it is.   One of the key life experiences for me is to know who is giveing the advice and what their frame of reference is.  Just because something is safe for one climber  does not mean its safe for me . I have a friend who routinely solos 5+ ice. If he says something is easy and you will hike it I take that with a large grain of salt. On the same note when elite climbers come up with techniques to increase  speed at the expense of safety I ask myself is it nessicary for me to make this tool part of my SOP. Often the answer is no.  Case in point five of us are waiting to use an exposed  common rappel station with a very thin slabby stance.  4 of us  clipped into the station to get into our rappels. the 5th climber is an elite climber and did not clip in. obviously that  worked for him but its not recommended for the rest of us and it was completely unnecessary.  FWIW if the gunks  is your local crag simu rapping is absolutely unnecessary. Whats the big rush to go splat on a 280ft tall cliff .

 Post limits suck. 

Eric. i have no irrational fear. simo rapping is inherently more risky than standard rap and completely unnecessary on a short cliff.  is what it is.   and yes i have been dropped simo rapping in a situation where  simo rapping was not  required or practicle but the other person insisted on it. . i have also  simo rapped in situations where it was the only reasonable way down. ...I used to do it a fair bit when we were developing a lot of  sport climbs. two people could inspect the line at the same time and discuss the process and options.  even then we only did it when we had a good reason to.   .   and yes one of you absolutly could thread their gri backwards and  then your both fcked. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Eric you have no clue what i do or don't have dialed.  I am very well versed in how the cool kids get a tolerance for risk that is simply not necessary for the average climber.  many of the same techniques that are vital for speed records and monster objectives are downright stupid for most recreational climbing applications. Is what it is.   One of the key life experiences for me is to know who is giveing the advice and what their frame of reference is.  Just because something is safe for one climber  does not mean its safe for me . I have a friend who routinely solos 5+ ice. If he says something is easy and you will hike it I take that with a large grain of salt. On the same note when elite climbers come up with techniques to increase  speed at the expense of safety I ask myself is it nessicary for me to make this tool part of my SOP. Often the answer is no.  Case in point five of us are waiting to use an exposed  common rappel station with a very thin slabby stance.  4 of us  clipped into the station to get into our rappels. the 5th climber is an elite climber and did not clip in. obviously that  worked for him but its not recommended for the rest of us and it was completely unnecessary.  FWIW if the gunks  is your local crag simu rapping is absolutely unnecessary. Whats the big rush to go splat on a 280ft tall cliff . 

If your concern is “going splat” off a short cliff, you seem to have an irrational fear of simulrapping. I’m sure you won’t care to answer this question, but if I’m simulrapping on grigris with my wife, with knots tied in to the end of the rope, where exactly is my risk of “going splat?” Anchor failure? Rope failure? Grigri failure? Would you suggest that I or she would incorrectly thread the grigri? And then not check? People make mistakes, but some mistakes are so unmakeable, it would be like suggesting I MIGHT forget to wear my rock shoes on a multipitch. Or forget to put my harness on, or something else absolutely critical to climbing safely.

I know you want to write off simulrapping “tolerable for cool kids” but again, it’s much more efficient, faster, and much more logistically enjoyable. The Gunks is my home crag, and your “average” climber is significantly more dangerous and accident prone than your average simulrapper. I’ll even go a step further and say experienced climbers SHOULD simulrap over other forms of rapping as a part of building their experience into climbing, similarly like you would pyramid through the grades of difficulty and commitment in climbing objectives.

But of course, it’s all climbing, so you do it however you want. 

I'm going to give you an example of an incident that happened to my partner, when she was a noob:

Short simul-rap off some cliff with her strong but also noob partner. That partner insisted on simul-rapping everthing because that's what he was taught. They rap down, but being noobs were not paying attention to the fact the ground was sloped at the base of the route. Her partner was on the 'high side' of the slope, touched down. She was level with him but due to the slope she was still 10 or more feet off the deck. Both ends knotted and all that horseshit. Her idiot partner immediately released his rap device and dropped her to the ground. Luckily she was not seriously injured.

I think the issue many take with the "simul-rap everything" advice is knowing these sorts of things happen to noobs who are unaware or in the case her ex-partner, too fucking stupid to breathe and chew gum at the same time. 

The OP's near fatal accident is just a variation of this. 

Note I am not advocating for or against simul-rapping. I don't fucking care how others descend really, but I am always intersted in seeing how group-think gets translated in the real world.