Another Day on Solar Slab: How not to Interact with Your Fellow Climber

Feel for the OP.  My partner and I climbed Johnny vegas and solar slab a couple weeks ago.  Honestly was shocked at how aggressive regular climbers and even guides were, both on the climb and mostly on rappel.  At one point im on the ledge/rap anchors of pitch 3 SS, patiently waiting for a team to clear, and watch 3 separate teams above toss their ropes down onto climbers on route and rap through them.  Disgusting.   The climb was good, but I won’t do that “classic” again.

musings…given the volume of climbers, shocked that the trade routes don’t have dedicated rap lanes separate from the climbs.   And that 40’ of low 5th class down climb off P1 SS... wasn’t an issue for us but some newb is going to get hurt and then area shut.    

Max Tepferwrote:

How not to Interact with Your Fellow Climber...

Ultimately I'm with you: lead with kindness, if it doesn't really matter, don't be pushy, but if it matters for some reason, don't be afraid to assert yourself if you've given another party every opportunity to do the right thing and continue to be friendly as you work past them.

You were hoping that the "Timmy" will identify himself in your post. How did you expect him to feel after reading it, which btw is full of judgement and despise? Do you think reading your post would make his day? Somehow I feel that you are demonstrating "How not to Interact with Your Fellow Climber." 

If you put yourself in his shoes, you might understand why he appeared to be annoyed in the beginning. You did get around them and cut in line. In your own mind, you are a crusher and it would not be a problem for everyone, but he would have no way of knowing it, would he? After all, if I read it correctly, he did have to wait a bit for you guys to clear. Timmy was just being a human, not a saint. I'm sure he would have appreciated it if you immediately explained to him your intention and give him some assurance that your cutting in line will not cost them much. Even just telling him that you'd done the route dozens of times might have eased a bit of his anxiety from the get go. A little open and kind communication goes long ways.

Sounds like a super passive aggressive conversation that you can't stop dwelling on. Can't believe you typed that essay out to whine about it. Move on with your life. 

Solar slab on a nice February Friday at 8:00am. You better expect hostilities. You only have yourself to blame honestly. 

Also major hypocrite vibes: 1) OP says be humble but brags about number of ascents up Solar Slab for Levitation 29. Lmao. 2) OP says be kind and nice to others but writes an essay about what a gumby someone he ran into is. 

Just be honest - youre an ass like the rest of us. Don't try to sugarcoat it. I hope you learned your lesson. 

It seems to me that one of most respectable skills of a guide or instructor is getting people to do things that they think they're not prepared to do, and getting them to do them by making, or letting, people think that they're the ones making the choice to do the appropriate thing. It also seems to me that the OP could stand to acquire more adeptness in this art.

I feel like I already read this story in the AAC's "Micro-aggressions in American Climbing." 

M Mwrote:

Sometimes its best to just light up a joint and pretend to not speak English.

IDK, I can see how the write-up could come off as a vent or as spray. 

either way, a great quote came out of it.

While not technically the easiest climb at Red Rock, the Solar Slab falls into the category of super easy, super classic. Those are always the most popular and congested climbs.  

JV and BB are pretty close to super easy, super classic as well.  (Full disclosure: super easy is my max difficulty.)

Of course people will get torqued up waiting for people or dealing with would be passers: happens at every crag, every weekend. 

Bruno Schullwrote:

Max -- Thanks for the story, and thanks in generall for your contributions and posts, which often illuminate the intricacies of the guiding profession.  I sympathize with the sentiments you express, although I agree with a few others that it was perhaps not the most constructive text.  I'll chalk it up to the understandable need to vent, along with a valuable plea to treat each other well.

It does raise a few interesting points.  Notably, are there any actual rules about who climbs first, gets to pass, and so on?  I don't mean shared cultural norms, good sense principles, or best safety practices...I mean actual laws?

For example, let's say the situation was as you describe, and this other climber decided to just start up the pitch with your partner half-way to the next anchor, increasing the complexity and perhaps the danger for everyone?  It wouldn't be nice, and perhaps it wouldn't be safe, but would it be illegal?

I live and climb in Europe, and this kind of thing is common.  People just climb right through, often clipping your gear.  I think it gets tricky when accidents happen.  I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but in the snowsports world, here in Switzerland, you can be held legally accountable if you trigger an avalanche above another party.  But what if another party moves underneath you without your control?  I think it's typically applied when, for example, some skiers or riders come in from the top and do something reckless and trigger a slide, but I can see that the arguments could get complicated and one would need experienced people to determine a just outcome. 

What about climbing?  Let's say the other party climbed past you as above, and then triggered rockfall, or fell and hit you or your partner, or in some way caused you or your partner to fall or be injured in some way?  What would happen then?

I wonder if a principle could be applied to th effect of "did this party act in a way inconsistent with the shared practices of this group? or "Did this party act in a reckless way that they should have been able to predict or anticipate given their level of experience?" Could a charge of reckless endangerment be aplied?  I could also see the legal argument that anybody engaging in an activity like climbing accepts risks which includes people climbing above/around you.  I'm not sure how this would play out in court.  

The reverse situation is also interesting.  Let's say you come upon a party moving slowly or having an epic on terrain that is moderate for you, and perhaps there is a time pressure or concern about weather of some other factor.  Does the other party get to dictate whether or not you pass just because they got there first?  You can try to be friendly and accomodating and ask to pass nicely, but isf they say no do you just climb through anyway?  As above, if there is no law and if you don't put them in danger or interfere significantly with them then...?

Basically, in broad terms, in the absence of laws, are people free to do as they please, however offensive others might find their behavior?

Two examples, one anectodal and one personal. 

I read on MP about a team climbing Snake Dike in Yoemite.  Nice weather, crowds, lots of teams, as expected.  They were fast and competent.  They safely passed a couple of teams (if I remember correctly) and then came to a team with a polite yet stubborn belayer who refused to let them pass or even join at the lower anchor.  For many pitches, all the way to the top, the leader of the fast party just waited one move below the anchor for the slower team to move off and then continued.  I find that ridiculous.  I am willing to move heavan and earth, wake up at whatever hour, hike any distance, to be free from crowds on climbs, and I generally ascribe to the first come first serve principle, but sometimes it just doesn't make sense.  Being first does not or should not in my view give you the absolute right to be a stubbon jerk and fuck up other peoples days.  

I was climbing the Chere couloir in Cham, a moderate ice line I have climbed about ten times.  It's always crowded, and the crux is getting there first.  I was once in the second team on route.  Another team was moving really slowly and having a huge epic at the first belay.  I came up to them, greeted them nicely, shared some friendly conversation, and asked if I could pass.  They said no.  I said, OK, well, I was only asking to be nice, but I'm going to pass anyway, because we're moving and you're not.  I passed them, we climbed the rest of the gully, and by the time we were rapping down, they were still at that same belay, and several other parties has passed them too.  I felt a little bad about passing--it's not often in life that you politely ask for permission for somehting and then, when you get no for an answer, basically say, fuck you, I'm doing what I want anyway.  When I hapened to run into them in Cham later I apologized and offered to buy them a beer (offer declined) but really, especially on an alpine climb, you have to keep moving, and you have to be realistic about your abilities.

Back to the main points: Where do ethics and cultural norms end and laws begin?  How far should we take being nice and polite vs being realistic and accomplishing goals?  Does being first always give you the right to a climb?  

Discuss..

I'm in Idaho. Laws are pretty much considered advisory, and any governance at all is highly suspect and only exists because most don't give a f*** if it exists....or not.

H.

grug gwrote:

Solar slab on a nice February Friday at 8:00am. You better expect hostilities. You only have yourself to blame honestly. 

Also major hypocrite vibes: 1) OP says be humble but brags about number of ascents up Solar Slab for Levitation 29. Lmao. 2) OP says be kind and nice to others but writes an essay about what a gumby someone he ran into is. 

Just be honest - youre an ass like the rest of us. Don't try to sugarcoat it. I hope you learned your lesson. 

passive-aggressive? Debatably so, but I thought it was funny and it was 100% a story that many people can relate to.

Reread his OP. Where does he give a number about L29? Be accurate if you're going to try to call someone out, lest you look foolish.

Was the gumby in question... a gumby? Absent evidence to the contrary, sure sounds like it. so you want the OP to "Don't...sugarcoat it," but you object when he's honest about running into an annoying AF gumby and...not sugarcoating his experience. Cool. Sounds kinda like...hypocrisy.

I hope you've learned your lesson. Do better when you try to flame someone with intellectually shite analysis.

Old lady Hwrote:

I'm in Idaho. Laws are pretty much considered advisory, and any governance at all is highly suspect and only exists because most don't give a f*** if it exists....or not.

H.

@ lady H...that's a nice libertarian sentiment, but it's always fun to see how quickly that goes out the window when somebody actually needs a policeman, a road, a school, an ambulance, a public hospital, a public defender, a prison, clean water, garbage disposal, disaster aid, and...you know...all the general things governments provide :)

Also fun when macho types try to "take the law into their own hands" and get burned.

Christian Heschwrote:

passive-aggressive? Debatably so, but I thought it was funny and it was 100% a story that many people can relate to.

Reread his OP. Where does he give a number about L29? Be accurate if you're going to try to call someone out, lest you look foolish.

Was the gumby in question... a gumby? Absent evidence to the contrary, sure sounds like it. so you want the OP to "Don't...sugarcoat it," but you object when he's honest about running into an annoying AF gumby and...not sugarcoating his experience. Cool. Sounds kinda like...hypocrisy.

I hope you've learned your lesson. Do better when you try to flame someone with intellectually shite analysis.

The OP was providing one perspective of an interaction, there’s always at least two sides. I suspect the other side would be equally as negative. 

Right now it looks to be 40% for the OP and 60% against, maybe we had to be there to understand?

Christian Heschwrote:

Was the gumby in question... a gumby? Absent evidence to the contrary, sure sounds like it. so you want the OP to "Don't...sugarcoat it," but you object when he's honest about running into an annoying AF gumby and...not sugarcoating his experience. Cool. Sounds kinda like...hypocrisy.

Everybody starts off as a "gumby"; there's really nothing that can be done about that. But for an experienced climber to write a tome about a nothing-burger interaction with a newer climber four days after said interaction says much more about the OP than the guy who didn't get to give his perspective on it.

I for one appreciate the OP's write-up here. I'm a self-taught climber and when starting out I read endlessly on these forums about everything from belay technique to crag etiquette. Stories like these helped me learn how to deal with situations like this without having experienced them myself. 

This is getting really good

I personally love this write up. It was well written, entertaining, and made me laugh. Keep sharing!

Bruno Schullwrote:

Max -- Thanks for the story, and thanks in generall for your contributions and posts, which often illuminate the intricacies of the guiding profession.  I sympathize with the sentiments you express, although I agree with a few others that it was perhaps not the most constructive text.  I'll chalk it up to the understandable need to vent, along with a valuable plea to treat each other well.

It does raise a few interesting points.  Notably, are there any actual rules about who climbs first, gets to pass, and so on?  I don't mean shared cultural norms, good sense principles, or best safety practices...I mean actual laws?

For example, let's say the situation was as you describe, and this other climber decided to just start up the pitch with your partner half-way to the next anchor, increasing the complexity and perhaps the danger for everyone?  It wouldn't be nice, and perhaps it wouldn't be safe, but would it be illegal?

I live and climb in Europe, and this kind of thing is common.  People just climb right through, often clipping your gear.  I think it gets tricky when accidents happen.  I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but in the snowsports world, here in Switzerland, you can be held legally accountable if you trigger an avalanche above another party.  But what if another party moves underneath you without your control?  I think it's typically applied when, for example, some skiers or riders come in from the top and do something reckless and trigger a slide, but I can see that the arguments could get complicated and one would need experienced people to determine a just outcome. 

What about climbing?  Let's say the other party climbed past you as above, and then triggered rockfall, or fell and hit you or your partner, or in some way caused you or your partner to fall or be injured in some way?  What would happen then?

I wonder if a principle could be applied to th effect of "did this party act in a way inconsistent with the shared practices of this group? or "Did this party act in a reckless way that they should have been able to predict or anticipate given their level of experience?" Could a charge of reckless endangerment be aplied?  I could also see the legal argument that anybody engaging in an activity like climbing accepts risks which includes people climbing above/around you.  I'm not sure how this would play out in court.  

The reverse situation is also interesting.  Let's say you come upon a party moving slowly or having an epic on terrain that is moderate for you, and perhaps there is a time pressure or concern about weather of some other factor.  Does the other party get to dictate whether or not you pass just because they got there first?  You can try to be friendly and accomodating and ask to pass nicely, but isf they say no do you just climb through anyway?  As above, if there is no law and if you don't put them in danger or interfere significantly with them then...?

Basically, in broad terms, in the absence of laws, are people free to do as they please, however offensive others might find their behavior?

Two examples, one anectodal and one personal. 

I read on MP about a team climbing Snake Dike in Yoemite.  Nice weather, crowds, lots of teams, as expected.  They were fast and competent.  They safely passed a couple of teams (if I remember correctly) and then came to a team with a polite yet stubborn belayer who refused to let them pass or even join at the lower anchor.  For many pitches, all the way to the top, the leader of the fast party just waited one move below the anchor for the slower team to move off and then continued.  I find that ridiculous.  I am willing to move heavan and earth, wake up at whatever hour, hike any distance, to be free from crowds on climbs, and I generally ascribe to the first come first serve principle, but sometimes it just doesn't make sense.  Being first does not or should not in my view give you the absolute right to be a stubbon jerk and fuck up other peoples days.  

I was climbing the Chere couloir in Cham, a moderate ice line I have climbed about ten times.  It's always crowded, and the crux is getting there first.  I was once in the second team on route.  Another team was moving really slowly and having a huge epic at the first belay.  I came up to them, greeted them nicely, shared some friendly conversation, and asked if I could pass.  They said no.  I said, OK, well, I was only asking to be nice, but I'm going to pass anyway, because we're moving and you're not.  I passed them, we climbed the rest of the gully, and by the time we were rapping down, they were still at that same belay, and several other parties has passed them too.  I felt a little bad about passing--it's not often in life that you politely ask for permission for somehting and then, when you get no for an answer, basically say, fuck you, I'm doing what I want anyway.  When I hapened to run into them in Cham later I apologized and offered to buy them a beer (offer declined) but really, especially on an alpine climb, you have to keep moving, and you have to be realistic about your abilities.

Back to the main points: Where do ethics and cultural norms end and laws begin?  How far should we take being nice and polite vs being realistic and accomplishing goals?  Does being first always give you the right to a climb?  

Discuss..

Do you feel like passing on an ice route involves the same etiquette as on a well-established rock route? Respectfully, it seems super different to me, as you are pretty much guaranteed to be dropping stuff on whoever you pass, no matter how competent you are... 

Will Mwrote:

This is getting really good

Agreed!

Most fascinating to me is how people are latching onto talking about being a guide.  I only included it because the Gumby in question made such a big deal out of it and I thought it was funny.  Certainly not in an attempt to make myself look cool.  (Honestly I don’t really think that being a guide makes one all that cool)

More generally, if I was trying to spray, climbing solar slab in approach shoes isn’t where I’d start

Max Tepferwrote:

Agreed!

Most fascinating to me is how people are latching onto talking about being a guide.  I only included it because the Gumby in question made such a big deal out of it and I thought it was funny.  Certainly not in an attempt to make myself look cool.  (Honestly I don’t really think that being a guide makes one all that cool)

More generally, if I was trying to spray, climbing solar slab in approach shoes isn’t where I’d start

Your attire and profession was definitely not important at all but you sprayed about it as if to seem superior to the gumbo. Don't worry, lots of guides spray without even knowing it, goes with the territory.

How do you know somebody is a guide?