Another Day on Solar Slab: How not to Interact with Your Fellow Climber

Max Tepferwrote:

 I only included it because the Gumby in question made such a big deal out of it and I thought it was funny.  

Still confused as to what makes “Timmy” a Gumby in this situation? Just him not knowing you’re faster on the 5.6 or briefly accepting your offer to pass before rescinding it?

Didn’t you recently have an unsuccessful attempt on the evolution traverse? That climb doesn’t have a single move on it over 5.7, might have been worth throwing actual climbing shoes on for. Seems very odd to publicly lambast an obviously newer and motivated young climber for not performing as well as you when you and I both have “off” days. 

Igor Chainedwrote:

How do you know somebody is a guide?

They charge you to climb with them. 

Two observations:

1. On MP we often hear these biased one sided accounts of some injustice someone had to put up with - apparently in an attempt to generate a lot of "oh you poor thing type" of responses.  We never hear the other side.  No fact checking

2. I think there is generally an inverse correlation between how good/active/experienced a climber is and how much then post on MP.

Therefore what can I conclude about the relative abilities of the two protagonists in this drama?

Max,

You post quite a bit of good info. I sympathize with you for this story.

But there is a lot of guide-hate on MP, so you can expect this when you mention you are a guide.

I know some guides won't post on MP; some for this reason.

Igor Chainedwrote:

How do you know somebody is a guide?

They'll tell you.

Your answer is not wrong though, Andrew.

Optimisticwrote:

Do you feel like passing on an ice route involves the same etiquette as on a well-established rock route? Respectfully, it seems super different to me, as you are pretty much guaranteed to be dropping stuff on whoever you pass, no matter how competent you are... 

Hi Optimistic--you raise a great point.  My first response would be, no, an ice route would definitely not involve the same etiquette regarding passing as a well-established rock route for exactly the reason you cite--the near certainty that those above will send ice down on those below.  If show up at a common ice climbing crag here in Europe, and there are rope teams on a route, I don't climb below, either to follow or try to pass.  I try to get up super early to be first, or I wait at the bottom, or I choose a different line, or I just call it a day. 

Having said that, you've prompted me to think about why a route like the Chere couloir is different.  It is different, it's just hard to specify exactly why.  I'll try to get down some ideas, none of which are probably sufficient to make a case, but all of which play a role in decision making.  First, it's just a cultural thing.  Chamonix is crazy...an international mix of alpine climbers all moxed together in a big chaotic jumble.  It's common and accepted for people to pass eachother, climb over and through, rappel above, and so on.  That includes guides with clients.  In fact, as I descended the Chere that day, there were two teams of guides with multiple clinets stacked up in the couloir waiitng their turn.  And it is or can be a dangerous place!  The cultural acceptance doesn't make this right...but it helps explain how people behave.  Second, it's alpine ice, usually very compact, with well consolidated placements.  I've never climbed it in brittle, dinner-plating conditions--it just seems like a different kind of formation, which much less risk/certainty of knocking ice onto those below.  On the other hand, especially the last 5 years or so, warming has made the rock much less stable, especialy near the top, so rock fall is a real concern.  I definitely don't think I'd start up behind anybody, or pass anybody, in the conditions I've seen the last few years.  Third, we are taking about an alpine couloir near 3500 meters with a glacier approach, a bergschrund, and so forth.  Yes, it's relatively close to a lift, but it's also consequential terrain.  So the investment to get there is larger, and the possibility to climb another route is less straightforwward, and the decision to bail is more involved than at a more accessible ice crag.  Yes, these are incidental concerns in some way, but it does seem that as you get into more alpine terrain the decisions change.  I would be happy to wait while two beginners have an epic on an ice line at a popular crag, but in a super popular trade route in the high mountains, you have to be a little more realistic, I think.  If theyn were having trouble on the first pitch, which is just steep snow, then they were in way over their heads, and passin them when they were at the only truly rpotected belay on rhe route was perhaps the best outcome (as I said, many other teams passed them at the same palce as well). 

Anyway, this brings up lots more to discus, and I appreciate that depth.  The biggest takeaway, of course, is don't come to Cham and take the first lift up and expect to climb the Chere couloir in peace!  Stay at the hut or camp on the Midi plateau, and get up early!  Plus, with the recent warming, take care in the Chere couloir, especially neat the top pitches. 

"I was there!! Max is my coworker at cliffhanger and we both happened to be climbing it the same day but not for work. I psycho passed those guys on tbe loop road cuz we were jamming for first, but to their credit they pulled up two minutes behind us but hit the ground running and beat us to the base. They told us “we’re 5.10 Colorado climbers so we’re gonna go fast” and I knew right there I wasn’t gonna wait in line behind them lol (vindicated right away when the belayer, who is Timmy in the post, tells his partner “you wanna get in the habit of extending placements” oh yea dude you’re solid 5.10 climbers yea for sure. Anyway, we blasted up the solar gully instead of folllwing them on Johnny Vegas but we hit the terrace first and never saw em till the descent (more on that in a sec). I saw max coming up behind me which was super fun, and he told me about his encounter with them before I even told him my story lol. 

Max is mega fast and they climbed way faster than “Timmy” so that’s def not what slowed them down. So, we summit, we linger, it’s soooo beautiful in the painted bowl, we’re just meditating and lounging for hours, and by the time we hit the drainage, we hear em coming down. And they’re just complaining, about the day, and about the descent too, which is so god damn beautiful and fun. What losers."

-Not Hobo Greg

Max Tepferwrote:

Agreed!

Most fascinating to me is how people are latching onto talking about being a guide.  I only included it because the Gumby in question made such a big deal out of it and I thought it was funny.  Certainly not in an attempt to make myself look cool.  (Honestly I don’t really think that being a guide makes one all that cool)

More generally, if I was trying to spray, climbing solar slab in approach shoes isn’t where I’d start

That's spray too :)

FrankPSwrote:

Max,

You post quite a bit of good info. I sympathize with you for this story.

But there is a lot of guide-hate on MP, so you can expect this when you mention you are a guide.

I know some guides won't post on MP; some for this reason.

Gross generalization and not specifically referring to Max but guide hate is justified.

So many so-called “guides” only have a simple certification and really not much experience but like to act as if they’re experts. Then those who do have experience and extensive certification have an air of superiority and entitlement to whatever route they are on because they are “working” or have climbed it 100 times.

Not to mention clogging up classic routes with clients who have no business being there, the original sin of guidom.

Tradibanwrote:

Gross generalization and not specifically referring to Max but guide hate is justified.

So many so-called “guides” only have a simple certification and really not much experience but like to act as if they’re experts. Then those who do have experience and extensive certification have an air of superiority and entitlement to whatever route they are on because they are “working” or have climbed it 100 times.

Not to mention clogging up classic routes with clients who have no business being there, the original sin of guidom.

It's a "gross generalization," then you go on to show your disdain for guides. 

How do you decide who has "business being there"? I don't think most guides will take a client up a route that they are incapable of climbing. Being slow and struggling is OK, in my opinion.

You make my case for me!

Entertaining enough read for the stuck-in-the-office workday. Thanks Max. 

Sounds aggravating, but certainly can't expect every climber on the wall to be socially graceful. So it goes.
Sounds like you did a decent enough job of communicating your objectives and finding a safe enough compromise/resolution.

Anyways, just witlessly chiming in to piggy-back with one of my favorite soapboxes:

Being "nice" indicates idiocy.

Being "kind" indicates a knowledge of how things work and a caring concern for the tribe.

"It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice kind."

For more useless linguistic nitpicking and cognitive transcendence, subscribe to my InstaFaceTik Channel! 

Next week we'll discuss the difference between "being sorry" and "being apologetic".

FrankPSwrote:

It's a "gross generalization," then you go on to show your disdain for guides. 

Too many experiences as described to have a positive view of “guides”. Obviously, per the responses in this thread, I’m not alone here.

How do you decide who has "business being there"? I don't think most guides will take a client up a route that they are incapable of climbing. Being slow and struggling is OK, in my opinion.

No, it’s not ok on an ultra popular classic route. Routes that are above the head of the client are what guides are hired for in the first place.

Frankly, guiding should be banned in areas such as Red Rocks. Climbing isn’t for tourists.

Gumby Kingwrote:

"I was there!! Max is my coworker at cliffhanger and we both happened to be climbing it the same day but not for work. I psycho passed those guys on tbe loop road cuz we were jamming for first, but to their credit they pulled up two minutes behind us but hit the ground running and beat us to the base. They told us “we’re 5.10 Colorado climbers so we’re gonna go fast” and I knew right there I wasn’t gonna wait in line behind them lol (vindicated right away when the belayer, who is Timmy in the post, tells his partner “you wanna get in the habit of extending placements” oh yea dude you’re solid 5.10 climbers yea for sure. Anyway, we blasted up the solar gully instead of folllwing them on Johnny Vegas but we hit the terrace first and never saw em till the descent (more on that in a sec). I saw max coming up behind me which was super fun, and he told me about his encounter with them before I even told him my story lol. 

Max is mega fast and they climbed way faster than “Timmy” so that’s def not what slowed them down. So, we summit, we linger, it’s soooo beautiful in the painted bowl, we’re just meditating and lounging for hours, and by the time we hit the drainage, we hear em coming down. And they’re just complaining, about the day, and about the descent too, which is so god damn beautiful and fun. What losers."

-Not Hobo Greg

I've known a lot people that are fast hiking to the base of routes and they are usually good climbers so quite possibly timmy is an experienced and strong climber who was had by two different parties who knew the shortcuts. I think I get it now.

The bold part is kinda disturbing, sounds like a real New Jersey move to me. 

Pete Swrote:

Feel for the OP.  My partner and I climbed Johnny vegas and solar slab a couple weeks ago.  Honestly was shocked at how aggressive regular climbers and even guides were, both on the climb and mostly on rappel.  At one point im on the ledge/rap anchors of pitch 3 SS, patiently waiting for a team to clear, and watch 3 separate teams above toss their ropes down onto climbers on route and rap through them.  Disgusting.   The climb was good, but I won’t do that “classic” again.

musings…given the volume of climbers, shocked that the trade routes don’t have dedicated rap lanes separate from the climbs.   And that 40’ of low 5th class down climb off P1 SS... wasn’t an issue for us but some newb is going to get hurt and then area shut.    

To be fair solar slab has a beautiful walk off that takes less time than rapping the route. I don't agree with adding dedicated rap lines when there is a walk off. For what, so climbers can avoid a bit of walking in one of the most beautiful canyons in red rock? 

I guess I’ll be in the minority when I say I enjoyed Max’s story and didn’t find anything obnoxious about it.

But I have noticed that in this story and other similar storied the main difficulties arise from people beating around the bush and leaving unsaid or implying things that could just be factually stated.

For example, when Timmy walk up and seemed annoyed and implied, not stated, that he wanted to pass, Max could have just stated “ well, I’ve done this route x times, I typically onsight 5.x and I expect to lead my pitches in x minutes. My partner will probably be moving at X pace. So if you think you’ll be significantly faster than that, why don’t we…” 

Climber typically are very nice people in my experience, but not always the clearest communicators. 

Tradibanwrote:

Frankly, guiding should be banned in areas such as Red Rocks. Climbing isn’t for tourists.

My experience with guides is different.  Normally, not always, guides are very gracious.  Many guides are deeply embedded in their climbing communities: socially and by contributing time to maintaining areas.  Some write guide books. They provide an invaluable service to those transitioning from gym to rock without the benefit of mentors. And for tourists who know how to climb but don’t have time to way-find in areas they visit, guides support facilitate efficient access.

Without knowing your experiences or addressing them: the first come, first served ethos frequently results in the question who deserves an exception or who does not deserve their place in line. Most of that boils down to: me not you.  

I have let many parities pass me, when I know I am at my limit.  I have allowed free solists to climb through my group. I have told a team of three trying to jump into my climb from a parallel route that they had to wait.  In all cases there was a bit of uninvited stress.  In no cases was a guide with a client involved.  A guide without a client is a climber.

phylp phylpwrote:

But I have noticed that in this story and other similar storied the main difficulties arise from people beating around the bush and leaving unsaid or implying things that could just be factually stated.

For example, when Timmy walk up and seemed annoyed and implied, not stated, that he wanted to pass...

I agree with you overall about communication but all we have from this story is what the OP inferred. We don't know what "Timmy" implied or not. 

Ashortwrote:

To be fair solar slab has a beautiful walk off that takes less time than rapping the route. I don't agree with adding dedicated rap lines when there is a walk off. For what, so climbers can avoid a bit of walking in one of the most beautiful canyons in red rock? 

Fair point on walk off bud, you and I agree.  Unfortunately that isn’t going to stop the shit show of multiple parties trying to rap.  It is very dangerous and not likely to change, especially for climbers on route getting whacked by tossed ropes.  A proper rap lane would be safer for everyone.  

Brent Kellywrote:

Sounds like you did a decent enough job of communicating….

Nnnnnnh.  Maybe not.  Someone else mentioned this earlier,  that a quick and immediate acknowledgement of why they passed and Max’s familiarity with the route, etc would have immediately just skipped all the awkwardness and annoyance on both sides.  We know this cuz, Max himself wrote that Timmy, after understanding the situation, was even half talking up the “guide teams” above.  

All the classics are a guaranteed shitshow of one form or another.   Real takeaway is honest and forthright communication with no false humility and limited posturing from all teams.  Just let common sense dictate —-all things being relatively equal, let the more experienced/faster team go first.  

Edit:  just realized that Phylp Phylp posted almost exact same take while I was typing this on the side. 

I loved reading this OP, more so than many on MP recently. Thanks for sharing. It sounds to me like you handled the situation really well.