Trango Vergo - the GriGri slayer?

Jon Rhoderickwrote:

“instinctively putting his braking hand by his hip”, which would keep the Vergo close to the harness and keeping it unlocked

I learned to belay with a tube-style device and occasionally use a Grigri. My default is to lock off by my hip bone. I've never used the Vergo, but some of the comments here are making it seem like this position of the brake hand could completely disable the locking mechanism of the Vergo, due to the orientation of the device.

This is obviously no problem with an ATC and (in my experience) the Grigri never fails to lock up in this position.

Ryan Neviuswrote:

I learned to belay with a tube-style device and occasionally use a Grigri. My default is to lock off by my hip bone. I've never used the Vergo, but some of the comments here are making it seem like this position of the brake hand could completely disable the locking mechanism of the Vergo, due to the orientation of the device.

I routinely lock off Vergo by the hip - this is only used on climber asking for a take, or on lower. Vergo never fails to lock. I've been using Vergo since it came out. 

Edit - if the climber takes a planned fall, I usually bring my brake hand by the hip, Vergo hasn't failed to lock, don't recall any slips.

I had a scare with the Vergo today. I’ve been using it for a couple of years. It didn’t catch and I dropped my partner about 20 feet in the gym before I fully arrested him with my brake hand.  

This is most likely my fault/user error but I’m going to stop using the device regardless. I feel pretty crappy and it really messed with my head. My partner is a champ and was fine with continuing climbing after I stopped using the device.

A couple of observations.

1) I was wearing gloves and my sensitivity to the rope with the three fingers not on the device was reduced. It takes me more force to clamp down and so I dropped him farther than I think I would have without them. It most likely just needed a jiggle to engage the cam

2) I confirmed that I was holding the device as advised but I’m not positive if I had the device oriented like a grigri (arrow on the back pointing right vs left). Not sure how that would have made a difference though since the way you hold the device in operation doesn’t change, nor the orientation of the device when in use, and the rope was sliding through my fingers and the device. This could have been the issue, and that would be my fault. I was so spooked I didn’t think to check  and confirm.

Regardless, I’m done with this device. I have other belay devices and it’s not worth the risk to me and my partners IMO. Almost decking my partner is one of the worst experiences I’ve had climbing and I’m glad it’s just an “almost”.

If I were to use it again I’d drop my hand off the device when not feeding slack to make sure it was locked at all times. I also wouldn’t use gloves.

If you ask the device to engage without a brake hand, the orientation really does matter. Clipping it to your belay loop upside-down as compared with the '<-LEFT' arrow printed on the plate will make the rope run as straight as possible from the stack to the first bolt. That makes it least likely to engage when your brake hand is taking a smoke break (and it sounds like yours was doing just that, made worse by the glove). 

Try this- load up the device per the directions and hold it horizontally like the video from Trango:

• turn your body 90° to the right so that your left side faces the first bolt. Pull rope fast towards the bolt without gripping the brake strand. -I get no lockup.
• face the climb again, then turn your body 90° to the left so that your right side faces the first bolt. Pull rope fast towards the bolt without gripping the brake strand. -I get a different result: it locks.

Both left/right orientation and lead strand up vs. down seem to matter in a no-brake-hand situation. The Vergo definitely isn't a no-hands device, and the lack of a spring makes it behave quite differently from a GriGri.

FWIW, I manually lock the device between feeds with a left hand fingertip grip on the lead strand and ~1 lb of outward force until I feel the pin pinch the rope. Pull backwards and leftwards in an arc as you feed out slack. YMMV

For clarity, my brake hand was not taking a smoke break. It was on the device with my fingers in the ergo grooves, and I was holding it horizontally.  The reason why I was able to catch him 10 feet off the deck still is because my brake hand was on the device. I just had to slide it off the device and grab the rope.  However in a lead fall above the bolt the climber is moving super fast by the time you realize the rope is sliding and the device isn't catching.  I think my experience is probably closer to Mark E. Dixions earlier in this thread. It was probably an extra 10-12 feet of falling + the rope stretch.

What I mean by left or right on the arrow is shown in the pictures below. The first picture is the "correct" orientation (arrow points left), the second is the incorrect one (arrow points right). Either way the device's orientation when I'm using it is the same. I believe it would only make a difference in how the device responds when it starts to catch.  I fiddled with this some more and I think it really comes down to the gloves and the reduced sensitivity.  If I naively hold the device a little too tight with the cam not engaged the rope can just rip through it even in the "correct" orientation.  I just tested this now.  Normally I would feel this better but wearing gloves made things a little more sloppy for me. YMMV.  

Over all I think the device can work okay, but I don't want to use it any more. It's too bad because I've loved it. It does pay out slack incredibly well.  Too well one time is one time too many for me.

PM me if you want mine. It's in great shape and I'll sell it for cheap.  

Proof you're not using the device correctly. The thumb should be on the black pad, OR you should be very aware that you're bypassing the assisted braking and be ready to stop defeating the cam. Your method would be no different than gorilla gripping the cam down on a gri gri, except the Trango has a straight through path, so when its cam is defeated, there's zero friction. 

Ah I see. Thanks for the call out.  Looks like I developed a bad habit. Glad to get some resolution. I’ll play around with how it feels with the finger on the black pad. Not sure if I will switch back but glad to know what my error was. 

Get a Clip Up or Alpine Up.

Doesn't rely on cams for friction.

Super easy to pay out slack.  

If you or a loved one has been short roped by a Trango Vergo, you may be entitled to financial compensation.

Kai Larsonwrote:

Get a Clip Up or Alpine Up.

Doesn't rely on cams for friction.

Super easy to pay out slack.  

Relies on an interference fit between body and carabiner, so I mean it's not all that different, and in my mind a bit more sensitive to carabiner choice and rope diameter. Also not what I'd want to use for belaying a hangdog session

Love the cinch.  Have a vergo but never used outdoors or indoors.  Only playing around with it in the house.

Both are for sale. . . 

if you think paying out slack with a gri gri needs to be smoother then you just suck at belaying with a gri gri.

also, perhaps more insightful, the only way a gri gri could be "slayed" is if the alternate device were lighter. I'm not even a weight weenie whatsoever, but couldn't help but notice that the vergo is heavier. Therefore, fail with respect to a slaying.

I watched someone getting dropped by a belayer using the Vergo. I was sitting close to the belayer and watched the whole thing happen (in slow-mo it seemed). It was definitely user error, as the belayer gripped the rope above the Vergo (and got a rope burn on their fingers, while wearing fingerless gloves). But it also made me weary how easily the Vergo disengaged the auto lock compared to a Grigri. 

Fan Ywrote:

I watched someone getting dropped by a belayer using the Vergo. I was sitting close to the belayer and watched the whole thing happen (in slow-mo it seemed). It was definitely user error, as the belayer gripped the rope above the Vergo (and got a rope burn on their fingers, while wearing fingerless gloves). But it also made me weary how easily the Vergo disengaged the auto lock compared to a Grigri. 

This is really no different from gorilla gripping a grigri. Pulling down on the climber side of the rope is pretty much the only way to guarantee it won’t clinch, since it relies on the climber-side tension to pull the cinching plate down. Gross misuse of the device.

Don Frijoles wrote:

There is an important difference. Grabbing the rope harder is an instinctive reaction while gorilla gripping a grigri is deliberate. Both are user error, but one is more likely to happen and has to be unlearned, vs not learned at all.

Gorilla gripping is borne out of bad technique or panic-grabbing the device.

there’s no scenario where you should be pulling the climber side of the rope when the climber falls. That’s bad technique or panic-grabbing the rope.

Don Frijoles wrote:

It's easy to learn: Never gorrila grip a gri gri. There is NO situation where you should squeeze the entire device. Once you know that, which one should learn on first use, the problem goes away. No need to practice something you aren't going to do ever.

You have to occasionally grab the climber side of the rope with any belay device in order to pay out rope. So on the vergo you have to train yourself to overcome the natural reflex of not grabbing harder when something unexpected happens. You have to un-learn to use the device safely. Plus that thumb on the black button requirement is ridiculous.

The gri gri design is aligned with natural behavior. You have to try to break it to break it. Nothing has slayed it yet.

Paying out slack is not the issue. A fall during slack payout in a vergo will not prevent the vergo from cinching (whereas a fall during slack payout with an overridden grigri will result in the cam failing to engage). The only way the belayer in the previous comment could have disengaged the assisted braking with their guide hand is by pulling with their guide hand.

even the most novice belayer should understand that pulling on the climbers side is bad technique. At best, they’ll burn their hand. It’s a habit that shouldn’t need to be unlearned when transitioning to the vergo because it should have been unlearned in their first belay lesson.

The thumb on the black button its what allows free rotation of the plates. Saying that’s ridiculous is like saying it’s ridiculous to expect people not to hold their thumb on the GriGri cam…

J Ewrote:

A  fall during slack payout in a vergo will not prevent the vergo from cinching (whereas a fall during slack payout with an overridden grigri will result in the cam failing to engage). The only way the belayer in the previous comment could have disengaged the assisted braking with their guide hand is by pulling with their guide hand

Vergo engages just fine in the scenarios you described - this is from personal experiences.

This thread got emo real quick. 

Holding the cam open on any device is a problem. If you don't know how your device works, you probably shouldn't be using it. Pretty simple. Basic belaying protocols means this device works every time. I've been using it a while and it has been a clear winner in every aspect, except maybe the few grams extra weight that doesn't matter at all, and my one and only complaint is that you can't "push the rope through" the device like you can feeding slack on a Grigri. This means being forced to touch cold metal in the winter. Any other time of the year, no big deal. 

Anyone else notice folks who use niche belay devices always have to come up with excuses why they use it/it's better than a Grigri?

Rasputin NLNwrote:

Anyone else notice folks who use niche belay devices always have to come up with excuses why they use it/it's better than a Grigri?

Is "coming up with" defined as "using a device and describing its attributes compared to other devices"? If so, yeah, we have to come up with stuff.