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First in Line Ethics
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Hey all, I hope to get a question answered and hopefully a classic MP forum argument started. Q: If climber #1 gets to the base of the wall first, then a party arrives before the partner, climber #2, arrives at the wall should the party or other climbers be able to climb first? Recently had this happen to me, being part of the party. Essentially talked to the other climbers in the parking lot about goals of the day and such and it turns out we were going for the same climb with ~40 min approach. We parked and started hiking before, at a good pace and no breaks, while they were putting gear in their bags. We got to the base of the climb about a minute after partner #1 who immediately laid out his gear at the base. When jokingly asked if he ran to the base he said he jogged, we said he snaked the climb he didn’t respond. Climber #2 arrived a few minutes later. When Climber #1 lead the first pitch we were told climber #2 had never crack climbed before and was strictly following. At this point we left for a different climb. Anyways I wouldn’t mind seeing Climber #1 again, in the AAC accident reports /s |
Marco Conciwrote: Now, that’s an asshole thing to say. What you can do, is just wish them a fantastic day, then walk back to the parking lot and let the air out of their tires… |
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Climbers dedicate their life to rather selfish pursuits and often in very selfish ways. Like many things in life, while it may be more enjoyable to be forthwright and honest, there are just too many examples where it is better to be tacit about goals and intentions. FOMO does weird things to people, and does really bizarre things to selfish people. I would recommend Deciding not to be bitter or ill-wishing. The burners will burn themselves. Nothing wrong with accurately reporting BS though. |
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Seem fair. Whoever gets there first and starts preparing is first. Unless you're already racked up and ready to lead as you got to the base. Sucks to be beat and especially with a slow party but thats the game. |
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Whoever is ready to climb first. |
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This is one of the issues with so-called classic multi-pitch routes. Once you give up on that and go to cragging, you can fill your day with nothing but five star single pitches and no filler, with some easy waiting at the bases. |
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This isn't a question of ethics, but rather the result of a lack of communication. When I see someone who is obviously going for the same objective as me, I stroll over and talk with them. Ask them their plan, and come to an arrangement ahead of time. 9 times out of ten this results in everyone being satisfied. |
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Seems like some simple communication would solve the problem. I think it is worth having a discussion with the other team on their experience level and how fast they expect to move. I’m a fan of yielding to the quicker more experienced party though sometimes that can be hard to judge. If I showed up first I’d do everything I could to be ready when my partner showed up so the other team wouldn’t have to wait. If I was the 2nd party arriving and the 1st party was junk-showing and taking bong rips I’d be a bit bummed if they didn’t let me go first. In reality every situation is a bit different and I don’t think there are many hard rules about what to do besides just being cool and working it out with the other team. |
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IMO there's not a hard and fast rule for this situation. As mentioned you can often talk it out and figure out who is faster. The few times I've had an issue it was similar where the other party was wanting to go first but were slower than us. Twice my partners said another party could go first (without consulting me first) but they were new to the area and slower than us. Other times people have asked to pass, saying "we're really fast" and I say "so are we, let's go up a few pitches and if you're faster we may let you pass" and then we are faster and pull away from them. I agree with Locker sometimes you've got to stand your ground, but you don't want to be a dick. |
Locker wrote: I can’t wait around for you to finish downing your Ensure. |
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One person at the base of a climb is not a party in line. |
Marco Conciwrote: You got snaked, pick up the pace next time. |
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Ha! Reminds me of a story... We were at Smith, had just finished climbing Caffeine Free and were looking for another route. I popped around the corner and noticed Magic Light was open (AKA Traffic Light - 'cause it's always busy)! However, there was a group of 5 guys on Nine Gallon - just to the right of Magic light. I yelled to my partners - "Hey, Magic Light is open, it's NEVER open, it's super fun, we should get on it! So... I went over, helped pack our gear and about 10 minutes later we were walking around the corner and... ... there was now a rope at the base of Magic Light looped through a draw on the first bolt courtesy of the 5 dickheads climbing Nine Gallon Buckets. They weren't climbing it, I guess they were "saving" it. Well, my partners are allergic to confrontation so we climbed Cool Ranch Flavor just to the right of Nine Gallon instead. The Fantastic Five struggled mightily on Nine Gallon and never got to Magic Light. Total dick move on their part but no worries - we had a TON of fun on Cool Ranch. I'm sure they had fun too but NONE of them got the send. |
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All this is easily avoidable by not climbing around other people. If yer waiting in line to climb yer doing it wrong. |
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OP just perfectly described why I don't climb at Red Rocks. |
Michael Vaillwrote: FTFY |
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Whoever is faster should go first. There should be a discussion, and I'd generally tend towards letting the person who got there first going first. I will often leave my partner behind on the last bit of approach in order to prepare to climb, but if there are people around me I'm gonna talk to them. Usually the folks planning on going fast/light don't have the gear to stay out until way past dark, whereas the people planning on taking 10 hours to do the climb do. The only time I've been frustrated is encountering really slow parties mid route while unprepared, but that's also on me for choosing an easy popular multi. |
Marco Conciwrote: You’re a piece of shit saying that. |
B Radwrote: It was clearly a sarcastic joke, hence the /s |
Cole Ingwrote: It was intended as a joke, but it’s not funny. |
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Seriously I can’t believe someone would even jokingly want other climbers injured or killed while climbing. Maybe I am touchy because I was seriously injured climbing. Yeah, the party ahead was a bit out of line, but I always just tell myself to get up earlier next time and move on. I feel like trying to decide who is faster or slower never really solves any problems though. Folks often overestimate how fast they climb. Like they might not realize they aren’t efficient at belay stations and such. So I am going first even if some party after me claims they are fast because I have been burned before. And I am either climbing after the party ahead or find another climb. I am not going to try to figure out if I am faster and ask to go first. Like I said. I should have gotten up earlier. |
