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Relative Climbing Achievement Across Different Disciplines
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I know that technically a V4 equals a 12a but I think its pretty safe to say that sending a V4 is not the same level of actual difficulty/achievement as redpointing a 12a sport climb and certainly not a 12a trad climb. Below is my personal opinion of grades that are the same relative achievement, I'm curious what other peoples thoughts are. V4, 5.11a Sport, 5.10 Trad V6, 12a Sport, 5.11 Trad V8, 12c/d Sport, 12- Trad V10, 5.13b/c Sport, 12+ Trad |
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I think the French sport vs boulder grades actually match up pretty well in the sense of relative achievement. E.g. 6a sport and 6A boulder (5.10a and V3), 7a+ sport and 7A+ boulder (5.12a and V7), etc. I don’t know if that’s intentional or just a coincidence. |
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I feel like this is taking the already subjective topic of grades and trying to fit it into an arbitrary box. But in an attempt to add something constructive, if we are talking about the feeling of relative achievement, risk level should be considered as well. |
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When have you really run into a .12a/7a+ with a V6 or V7 (7A) crux? Unless you used insanely bad beta, the answer is, never. From someone who has managed to chuff .13-, but never sent harder than V5 outside. |
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i think you are looking for the distribution of climbers’ max grades across the various scales and trying to align the peaks. So, what is the median boulder the climbing population sends vs what is the median for sport vs trad vs ice v mixed. And then you may have to consider factors like how many years have people climbed, relative populations of sport/trad/boulder/etc climbers, etc
My data point would read: V7 5.12+ sport 5.12 trad |
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Since we’re being subjective, here are the grades that I’m in awe of by discipline: Consistent 5.12mid trad, 5.13mid sport, V9 boulderer Reaching that level just seems unreachable, so that’s my threshold give or take a letter grade. Single redpoint grade not as much of a factor for me. |
Hangdog Hankwrote: I've climbed some 5.10 trad routes. However, I've never ever been successful on a 5.11 sport route. I pretty much have flailed and failed on anything harder than 5.10. So, for me at least, 5.11 sport is harder than 5.10 trad. (I have no idea what V4 is because I don't boulder.) |
P Bwrote: What's your definition of consistent? This seems to vary Onsight/flash everything of that grade? Able to redpoint that grade fairly reliably with a few days effort? Etc .. |
JCMwrote: Have a few (10ish? idk) on the ticklist, probably flashing a letter grade or two beneath. Awe is relative I suppose.Whoever commented on risk of the route was spot on too |
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How do you even measure achievement, though? Different people will always value each style of climbing differently. The style that is most valuable to me is always an onsite, free solo, chalkless, non-filmed, nude, first ascent. |
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You’re assuming too big a gap between grades. At my absolute best I never climbed harder than honest V6. Geez, for me your scale is miles off. I peaked at 13c. Over pads, bolts, or hexes, your absolute moves are pretty much the same when giving it all. |
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I don't think you can do what you are trying to do. It's just not possible to compare the different disciplines and the experiences of each. Nor do I think it's even necessary. I know how hard I tried on my hardest sport routes, hardest trad routes, and ice climbs, both mentally and physically. They are all experiences that are so different I don't think you can compare them or that it is useful to do so. There were times I tried as hard as physically possible for a very short period of time. Times I held it together for an extended period of time. And times I thought I was going to either die or at least get seriously injured. I cherish all those memories. But I wouldn't want to try to equate them. |
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I agree with hank. If you think about performance percentiles, I think this lines up with 8a data. It’s like comparing running or other sports, while obviously the conversation isn’t 1-1, I think most v6 climbers could figureout 5.11a trad or 5.12 sport. My peak is v7/13a sport/11a/b(debatable route). I invest 99% of my energy into overhanging choss sport climbs. I think it is useful because it is nice to have some kinda expectations about where you could be if you switched it up. I think most trail runners have an idea of where they stand relative to marathon targets like Boston qualifying. Most realize if Olympic trials marathons ran trail races they would slaughter most trail runners. |
Frank Steinwrote: That’s not what the OP is asking though… nobody is saying the crux of a 5.12a is V7, or asking what individual people sport climb vs boulder. Let’s say the crux of a 5.12a is roughly V4. I suspect that the percentage of sport climbers who have sent 5.12a or higher, is smaller than the percentage of boulderers who have sent V4 or higher. In other words, 5.12a is more of an ‘achievement’ for a sport climber than V4 is for a boulderer. Put another way… there’s a book called “How to climb 5.12”. What would the grade in the title of the corresponding book about bouldering be? Probably not ”How to climb V4.” |
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Personally I would probably just adjust the bouldering down a grade V3, 5.11a Sport, 5.10 Trad V5, 12a Sport, 5.11 Trad V7, 12c/d Sport, 12- Trad V9, 5.13b/c Sport, 12+ Trad |
Tim Wengwrote: This 100%. |
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Looking at my local gym in the Kaya app, the median boulder grade is V4 and the median climb is 10b. That’s how they set to keep approximately the same group of regular members happy. Not sure that works exactly as an equivalence but it’s interesting. |
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You can’t really look at gym grades as they are wildly inconsistent between facilities, and even within. For example, at our gym I’ll flash V4 most of the time. V5 is a huge struggle bus, and V6 is unfathomable. At a large gym in Denver, I flashed three out of five V6s I got on. As for “achievements” outside, it really depends on one’s focus. .12a is a warmup grade, but as I stated earlier, in more than three decades of climbing, I’ve never climbed harder than V5 outside. |
Hangdog Hankwrote: Bouldering, Sport, and Trad as different disciplines and should not be compared. |
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A lot comes down to what you invest time in, in terms of relative feelings of achievement. A vert v9 for me is going to be significantly easier than overhung v9, generally speaking. That’s going to flip for others. But all things being equal maybe you and Tim are close to some kind of truth. I feel like the search for objectivity in climbing grades is like searching for the gold at the end of the rainbow. |
Tim Wengwrote: Yeah, this looks about right to me. -- Per the discussion above defining "consistent", I think that is an element worth considering. Though perhaps "consistent" is too strong a word. Maybe "established" at the grade is a better term. I'd say your max established grade is the highest level you've done maybe 3-5 of, with some variation in style or rock type. |
