Grade of Hypothetical Crack Climb

Crotch Robbinswrote:

60 feet of perfect splitter vertical hands is 5.8 every day of the week.

Nope

if you are bad at crack climbing 5.13, if you are good at crack climbing 5.4, if you are meh at crack climbing 5.9.

20m of 4 points in vertical crack on perfect hands is 5.9 to 5.10 depending on the area. 

Finger Locks or Cedar Box in the Gunks goes at 5.5 and is off-vertical thin hands and fingers. Rhododendron is totally vertical and goes at 5.6 and ranges from hands to fists with one steeper move. Golden Dream is a steep corner finger crack at 5.9. So based on that I’d say probably 5.4 - 5.5 old-school grades, maybe bump it up to 5.7 to account for indoor grade inflation? Definitely not 5.9 — hand jams & foot jams in hand-cracks are like jugs once you learn the technique

Edit: I’ll walk most of this back, but I’m still surprised at the 5.9 suggestion, I think that’s too high

Ryan Awrote:

Finger Locks or Cedar Box in the Gunks goes at 5.5 and is off-vertical thin hands and fingers. Rhododendron is totally vertical and goes at 5.6 and ranges from hands to fists with one steeper move. Golden Dream is a steep corner finger crack at 5.9. So based on that I’d say probably 5.4 - 5.5 old-school grades, maybe bump it up to 5.7 to account for indoor grade inflation? Definitely not 5.9 — hand jams & foot jams in hand-cracks are like jugs once you learn the technique

But none of those climbs require any kind of crack technique. At all.

5.8 in Jtree, 5.9 in the Sierra, 5.10 at the Creek, 5.11 at any gym in California, 5.12 in the Alps. 

Depends on the rock texture. Smooth or slippery rock i would guess 5.8+/5.9. 

Perfectly parallel and uniform crack in hand sizes isn't what people usually call "perfect hands" in real climbing. Perfect hands usually ends up meaning some constrictions in the crack that you can sink your hand or foot down into like a nut. Completely parallel cracks without those constrictions end up being a little harder. Certainly wouldn't call it a jug for most climbers.

Ryan Awrote:

Finger Locks or Cedar Box in the Gunks goes at 5.5 and is off-vertical thin hands and fingers. Rhododendron is totally vertical and goes at 5.6 and ranges from hands to fists with one steeper move. Golden Dream is a steep corner finger crack at 5.9. So based on that I’d say probably 5.4 - 5.5 old-school grades, maybe bump it up to 5.7 to account for indoor grade inflation? Definitely not 5.9 — hand jams & foot jams in hand-cracks are like jugs once you learn the technique

None of those are pure crack climbs. They have lots of non-crack features that can be used. 

Ryan Amos wrote:

That’s true, personally I find them easier to climb primarily as crack climbs but that might not be true for everyone. I’ll walk back my claim! But I’m still surprised at the 5.9 suggestion for a hand crack… perhaps I’m used to climbing cracks with pods and shape

Reeds Pinnacle Direct (Yosemite) is 5.9. The crux pitch has no move harder than 5.7. But also no move is easier than 5.7. For 160’. Plenty of pods and constrictions too, but dead vertical. 

J Leewrote:

Perfectly parallel and uniform crack in hand sizes isn't what people usually call "perfect hands" in real climbing. Perfect hands usually ends up meaning some constrictions in the crack that you can sink your hand or foot down into like a nut. Completely parallel cracks without those constrictions end up being a little harder. Certainly wouldn't call it a jug for most climbers.

I’ve never heard people use perfect hands to mean there are constrictions and I’ve heard a lot of people say it to refer to perfectly parallel cracks that are the exact right size for the person’s best hand jam size. I think constrictions are irrelevant.

Bryanwrote:

I’ve never heard people use perfect hands to mean there are constrictions and I’ve heard a lot of people say it to refer to perfectly parallel cracks that are the exact right size for the person’s best hand jam size. I think constrictions are irrelevant.

Now that, good sir, is just straight silly. Constrictions that cause your hand to work like a nut offer more security, equally meaningful both physically and the mental aspect, at the added cost of zero additional energy expended. It is commonly the difference between just tucking your thumb in and calling it good vs potentially feeling like you want to add some slight hand cupping action which expends more energy and/or twisting action which expends a tiny amount more energy and may increase the pain.

Both of these factor contribute a small amount to the difficulty, and although minor, they add up over the length of a pitch and can either make it physically more difficult or just feel more difficult. Even if the increase in difficulty is entirely psychological, this can cause many climbers to unthinkingly overgrip a slight amount or keep more tension in their body than is necessary, both of which then contribute to an increase in physical difficulty.

Sure one could argue that overgripping or having too much body tension are unnecessary choices and therefore it's the climber's fault and shouldn't affect the grade. However, these are generally choices made subconsciously in all but the most disciplined climbers and thus these effects will be commonplace. Given that the purpose of climbing grades are to convey information to the masses, I would argue that these things that affect the majority of climbers should be considered in determining the grade of a climb. 

Marc801 Cwrote:

Reeds Pinnacle Direct (Yosemite) is 5.9. The crux pitch has no move harder than 5.7. But also no move is easier than 5.7. For 160’. Plenty of pods and constrictions too, but dead vertical. 

And it leans right and is offset, making it harder than a straight in splitter.

Ryan Amos wrote:

That’s true, personally I find them easier to climb primarily as crack climbs but that might not be true for everyone. I’ll walk back my claim! But I’m still surprised at the 5.9 suggestion for a hand crack… perhaps I’m used to climbing cracks with pods and shape

Yeah the constrictions on all those climbs make them much easier than they would be otherwise (also they're all either less than vertical (Rhodo is definitely not vertical) or corners). A better Gunks analogy would be Lost City Crack 10a, slightly thin and slightly overhanging but the hard part is much shorter than 20m.

Crotch Robbinswrote:

And it leans right and is offset, making it harder than a straight in splitter.

And the last pitch is the crux and is a flared chimney/OW/Lieback.

Also, how would you grade a pure vertical line of jugs up a wall? Wait, is there no objective basis for climbing grades? Makes for quite the endless debate these open ended, purely subjective grade systems.

what texture is this hypothetical crack? Sandpaper grit number would be helpful.

perfect hands the whole way? 5.4

Constrictions make a climb easier, I was trying to say they’re irrelevant to calling a climb perfect hands. 

GabeOwrote:

Hmm... yeah, I'll give you that.  Can you name another, or is that just a single featherbagged route?

Generic Crack

John Clarkwrote:

And the last pitch is the crux and is a flared chimney/OW/Lieback.

Sure, but how many actually do that pitch? We looked at it, said 'yuck', and did Lunatic Fringe instead!

Marc801 Cwrote:

Sure, but how many actually do that pitch? We looked at it, said 'yuck', and did Lunatic Fringe instead!

Aside from myself, I only know one fellow idiot, and I assume the FA probably went that way too.  So, 3 people haha Only 5.10 I have ever called take on in the valley

Kevin Rwrote:

Generic Crack

Generic is not pure splitter.  The crux is a very distinct pod that is particularly hard for shorter folks, as they have to balance way up over their feet in order to reach high enough to get the next jam.  Without this pod I think Generic would be consensus 5.9 at the Creek.

GO