Predictions: 15c in US?

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Idk if there is a best proxy. This is a pretty bad take if you ask me. For one, comparing comp routes to the hardest routes being projected outside is not remotely fair as most comp routes are significantly easier, different style, and much different processes to send/win. For two, aside from a handful of climbers there aren’t many people climbing 5.15b or 5.15c and winning lead championships. Shubert and Ondra (and Megos when he competes) are pretty much the only ones. For three, American competitive climbers are pretty well documented as being less funded/supported than many other European climbing teams. 

You might be behind on world cups. Megos isn’t really a great comp climber and hasn’t been for a few years. Not bad, but not winning. American comp climbers are also doing pretty damn well these days compared to euros, but we don’t have the depth of the euros and nobody has the depth and dominance of the Japanese. Once ai mori is released upon some heinous outdoor crimp routes, say goodbye to males being the only ones sending 5.15+ 

John Clarkwrote:

You might be behind on world cups. Megos isn’t really a great comp climber and hasn’t been for a few years. Not bad, but not winning. American comp climbers are also doing pretty damn well these days compared to euros, but we don’t have the depth of the euros and nobody has the depth and dominance of the Japanese. Once ai mori is released upon some heinous outdoor crimp routes, say goodbye to males being the only ones sending 5.15+ 

If that’s the case that would only further exacerbate my point…

In other relevant news, Jumbo Love (og version) has regained it's status as the first 15b in the US (and possibly world). 

According to his 8a profile, Jonathan Siegrist repeated Flex Luthor and downgraded it back to 15a. Granted this is just one opinion, versus Matty Hong's opinion of 15b, but Siegrist is by far the most qualified current US climber to comment on the boundary between 15a and 15b. The 15a grade also makes more sense in historical context, and solves the mystery of whether or not Flex was 15b when Tommy did it. Sounds like it's just been 15a this whole time.

There’s more hard routes in Europe, because there’s more accessible good limestone. It’s everywhere, and it’s way easier to find hard lines on it. Not to mention, I think that style of climbing is the easiest to get good at compared to say granite climbing. 

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

Anyone who thinks Smith will be the location of future 5.15s is off their rocker. 

The line left of Scarface was tried by a climber in the spring right after  they had just sent Bibliographie, and said it was an unpleasant route but definitely harder than Bibliographie.
Smith will likely have a couple 5.15s (the Heresy project and thing on the Awl and true P1 of the Backbone) but will not rival the Vegas area for number of 5.15s in North America. 

Jon Rhoderickwrote:

The line left of Scarface was tried by a climber in the spring right after  they had just sent Bibliographie, and said it was an unpleasant route but definitely harder than Bibliographie.
Smith will likely have a couple 5.15s (the Heresy project and thing on the Awl and true P1 of the Backbone) but will not rival the Vegas area for number of 5.15s in North America. 

I'm assuming you mean the limestone? Ain't no way the brittle ass sandstone in RR yields many 5.15's

My money is on Seb Bouin pulling off the the first 5.15c.  

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Wow, so there was a time when Trevor actually made posts that weren't cringe worthy troll attempts 

This was probably my peak. I am at the point where you guys just troll yourselves if I comment.

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

That said there are a few steep limestone caves in Northern Wasatch that the Lowe brother's and crew have developed out, would be cool if there was a hidden gem in one of them. 

Honest question for y’all.

In the YDS, we try to pretend that endurance doesn’t factor in on the grades, but it truly is impossible not to factor it in. Such is the world of gradeurbating.

I understand that doing the same move tired is a whole lot harder than fresh. I can think of so many endurance routes that I haven’t sent that a barely harder than a warm up from a bolt to bolt perspective.

Supreme Jumbo Love, if I read correctly, doesn’t add any movement harder than Jumbo Love. It just throws 60 more feet of really difficult climbing at you before getting to the original route, which contains the crux. So the new hardest route in the country is an endurance test piece on top of (actually underneath) a previous endurance test piece.

Proud, hard, epic. Sure. But is skipping belays on a 3 pitch route really the pinnacle of performance?

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

In the YDS, we try to pretend that endurance doesn’t factor in on the grades

No we don't. 

Proud, hard, epic. Sure. But is skipping belays on a 3 pitch route really the pinnacle of performance?

Why not?

5.16 already exists in the US, it’s just closed to climbing. It’s called the Vatican in Rifle. If they ever open the bottom half of the canyon, it’s going to be a feeding frenzy of 5.15 FAs.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

Honest question for y’all.

Proud, hard, epic. Sure. But is skipping belays on a 3 pitch route really the pinnacle of performance?

I honestly don’t know what you’re getting at.

Adding hard climbing into hard climbing without rest makes for really hard climbing. When you do that at the cutting edge of difficulty then yes that is the pinnacle of performance. Whether 14d into 15b or V13 into V16 like Return of the Sleepwalker then yes that’s the pinnacle of performance because it takes the previously hardest things out there and makes them harder. 

Bryanwrote:

I honestly don’t know what you’re getting at.

Adding hard climbing into hard climbing without rest makes for really hard climbing. When you do that at the cutting edge of difficulty then yes that is the pinnacle of performance. Whether 14d into 15b or V13 into V16 like Return of the Sleepwalker then yes that’s the pinnacle of performance because it takes the previously hardest things out there and makes them harder. 

I’m well aware of what endurance is.

I’m saying that this route now holds the title as the hardest in the country but there are other routes with easier ratings that have harder moves.

I’m saying it’s a way to add letters to the grade without actually climbing harder in an absolute sense.

I’m saying it’s silly as shit to do a single 260ft pitch simply to upgrade the rating.

But if there was a 260ft 5.10 uninterrupted jug haul somewhere, you better believe I’d be camping at the base of it.

If you know me, you know I love endurance routes and can’t boulder myself out of wet paper bag.

Seems funny to me.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

Proud, hard, epic. Sure. But is skipping belays on a 3 pitch route really the pinnacle of performance?

Idk, on the huge, continuously overhanging cave-like walls where most 5.15s are located, it makes more sense to me to do the whole thing in one go than to have a contrived hanging belay at some random point in the middle.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

I’m saying it’s a way to add letters to the grade without actually climbing harder in an absolute sense.

It really is not. 

This YDS definition you seem to be operating around ended in the 1960s.

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

Ondras time in Smith I think validates my point

Ryan Palo climbs harder than I ever will but just do it being your lifetime project vs the thing you send in a season when you're 16 is a major difference. That may be an exaggeration of both people, but whatever.

As for being able to drill a 5.15c you would absolutely have to be a 15- climber to understand how to do it. 5.14 or weaker climbers could not understand how hard it would have to be most likely they would drill something right above their max or something far too difficult. 

The only scenario where someone is 'weak' drilling a 15c is in comparison to the person for whom 5.15+ is a session project.... a climber who does not yet exist...

I think the future will be strong climbers drilling in caves, trying the routes, filling in pockets/the back of pockets with epoxy to make the routes worse until they have the grade they're looking for.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

Honest question for y’all.

In the YDS, we try to pretend that endurance doesn’t factor in on the grades, but it truly is impossible not to factor it in. Such is the world of gradeurbating.

I understand that doing the same move tired is a whole lot harder than fresh. I can think of so many endurance routes that I haven’t sent that a barely harder than a warm up from a bolt to bolt perspective.

Supreme Jumbo Love, if I read correctly, doesn’t add any movement harder than Jumbo Love. It just throws 60 more feet of really difficult climbing at you before getting to the original route, which contains the crux. So the new hardest route in the country is an endurance test piece on top of (actually underneath) a previous endurance test piece.

Proud, hard, epic. Sure. But is skipping belays on a 3 pitch route really the pinnacle of performance?

I think you are mistaken, jumbo love was originally sent in 3 pitches by randy leaving at 7c/+, 8c+ and 8b, respectively. The direct start replaces 7c ish climbing with a 9a, thereby adding harder sequences than you find in the middle section. Also, I agree that climbing it in one pitch is less contrived than hanging belays.

https://hardclimbs.info/climbs/jumbo-love/

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

Ondras time in Smith I think validates my point

Ryan Palo climbs harder than I ever will but just do it being your lifetime project vs the thing you send in a season when you're 16 is a major difference. That may be an exaggeration of both people, but whatever.

As for being able to drill a 5.15c you would absolutely have to be a 15- climber to understand how to do it. 5.14 or weaker climbers could not understand how hard it would have to be most likely they would drill something right above their max or something far too difficult. 

The only scenario where someone is 'weak' drilling a 15c is in comparison to the person for whom 5.15+ is a session project.... a climber who does not yet exist...

I think both my points went well over your head….

I think the future will be strong climbers drilling in caves, trying the routes, filling in pockets/the back of pockets with epoxy to make the routes worse until they have the grade they're looking for.

This sounds like the worst possible future for climbing I could ever conceive of….

TheBirdman Friedmanwrote:

5.16 already exists in the US, it’s just closed to climbing. It’s called the Vatican in Rifle. If they ever open the bottom half of the canyon, it’s going to be a feeding frenzy of 5.15 FAs.

Is this the first cave up high on the right side of the canyon as your driving in?