Passed by a soloing couple on a climb.... who was in the wrong?

Jason Kim wrote:

This is preposterous.  This scenario with your imaginary Alex Honnold is the same as you solo'ing Freerider; it isn't going to happen.  But if we are playing fantasy games, I would be pissed if Jesus Christ himself solo'd above me in sketchy fashion and admitted to me that he was nervous.  

I would agree with your second statement.  Most of the soloists I've seen are pretty dialed in, polite, and I've never had an issue with being passed.  However, in the last 2-3 years I have seen something new; sketchy soloists that make me want to turn away or leave the area.  I've never had one of these people climb above me, but I would be pretty annoyed if they did, while I'm on lead and in the middle of something. If I'm at a belay, no big deal I'll just wait til they clear the area, keeping my head up and ready to dodge a missle.

It's not preposterous, if you climb any amount of time in Red Rocks it's highly likely Alex will solo past you on something. I haven't been passed by him, but I've witnessed him soloing in the canyons, and passing other people. 

The idea is that you would hold somebody you view as elite in a different regard than some unknown at your local crag, when generally, you shouldn't. Again, unless the soloist is radically reckless(to your second point, "sketchy") or dickish. Stopping to compose yourself for a few minutes on a solo is the opposite of reckless.

Eric Marx wrote:

Imagine the soloist was Alex Honnold and he stopped for a few minutes en-route and said, "Idk what's up but I'm sketching out here." Likely, you'd accept his level of comfort and would be posting here about how cool it was to watch Alex Honnold solo past you. 

It's so interesting to me other people's interpretations and mindsets and realities.  For me, I would certainly to be helpful and courteous to Alex Honnold or any other person, but I don't think he's at all "cool" because he chooses to solo and I don't think soloing is "cool".  People do what they want to do.  Mostly it's not my business.  But I can say that over the past ten years in the areas I climb (mostly CA and Nev), I have seen an explosion of what I call "the Honnold effect".  The typical practitioner is a 20-40 something male who likes to solo easy routes (5.6-5.8).  Sometimes with other people, though by definition that is not solo.  That is the circumstance that started this thread. And that is the type that is proliferating because they think soloing is "cool". I think of them as "the gumby soloists".  Like the guy who fell off of Nutcracker.   We're not talking in this thread about people who climb 5.13/14 and quietly solo 5.12.   And sorry, yet again, another vote that the person on the route first always has the right of way.  

Eric Marx wrote:

Imagine the soloist was Alex Honnold and he stopped for a few minutes en-route and said, "Idk what's up but I'm sketching out here." Likely, you'd accept his level of comfort and would be posting here about how cool it was to watch Alex Honnold solo past you. You wouldn't consider for one second that Alex was a dick for soloing past you. Despite the preened, reel-rock image of soloing, Alex said in interviews he doesn't like to film onsight soloing because it would make many people uncomfortable, the amount of up/down climbing and prodding around before committing. 

The same logic applies. With rare exception, the soloist is likely significantly more experienced than you or your partner and gets the right of way, even if you feel uncomfortable with and intruded upon by their level of climbing, unless, of course, the soloist is intentionally being a dick or radically unsafe and reckless.

It actually was Alex that day on Whitehorse... I was not trying to blow up his spot and call him out. 

Eric Marx wrote:

It's not preposterous, if you climb any amount of time in Red Rocks it's highly likely Alex will solo past you on something. I haven't been passed by him, but I've witnessed him soloing in the canyons, and passing other people. 

The idea is that you would hold somebody you view as elite in a different regard than some unknown at your local crag, when generally, you shouldn't. Again, unless the soloist is radically reckless(to your second point, "sketchy") or dickish. Stopping to compose yourself for a few minutes on a solo is the opposite of reckless.

The preposterous claim is that Honnold would stop alongside you and say "Idk what's up but I'm sketching out here" and then continue on above you.  

You're right that I would probably hold Honnold or TC or some other well-known climber in different regard to some rando that is thrutching his way up a moderate (like me).  I don't see the problem in that. These guys (or gals) are crazy strong and experienced and they don't present any real risk.  Now if I'm on a 5.8 or whatever, and rando soloist dude has to stop and compose himself at the ledge we are standing on, yeah I'm going to worry a little.  That is reckless, and the person's first mistake was deciding to solo the climb in the first place.  

I don't care too much what people do or what risks they take.  We are all different.  But if you're going to knowingly climb past people, have your shit dialed in.  Or go climb something else.  Or get there first.  I don't mind being passed (although I do get annoyed if I get passed and then I end up being held up by the same party later on the climb).  I don't mind a soloist passing me, as long as the person has their shit together.  

EDIT @ Eric: I guess we are all relegated to posting edits since we are over the posting limit, LOL.  Two responses to your post below.  First, I vaguely remember that Half Dome incident you describe, but you are comparing apples to oranges.  Alex was on a history-setting, world-class free solo of a huge route, without a bunch of people directly below him at that moment.  It's not like he was on Epi and freaking out as he contemplates the next moves, with parties lined up below.  Second, you write "I regularly climb .12+ trad and somedays don't have the head for 5.9 here in the gunks."  To that, I respond SPRAY!  I'll be honest though, if I climbed as hard I'd probably spray, too.

phylp phylp wrote:

It's so interesting to me other people's interpretations and mindsets and realities.  For me, I would certainly to be helpful and courteous to Alex Honnold or any other person, but I don't think he's at all "cool" because he chooses to solo and I don't think soloing is "cool".  People do what they want to do.  Mostly it's not my business.  But I can say that over the past ten years in the areas I climb (mostly CA and Nev), I have seen an explosion of what I call "the Honnold effect".  The typical practitioner is a 20-40 something male who likes to solo easy routes (5.6-5.8).  Sometimes with other people, though by definition that is not solo.  That is the circumstance that started this thread. And that is the type that is proliferating because they think soloing is "cool". I think of them as "the gumby soloists".  Like the guy who fell off of Nutcracker.   We're not talking in this thread about people who climb 5.13/14 and quietly solo 5.12.   And sorry, yet again, another vote that the person on the route first always has the right of way.  

I actually agree with most of this because I don't particularly care what anybody does on the rock as long as they don't damage it, themselves or others. The unregulated nature of climbing is one of the primary benefits of climbing. 

Like leaders get priority over topropers, soloists get priority over leaders. Though, even the ethic of leaders>topropers is dying. "I woke up the earliest therefore this route belongs to me for the day." is certainly not a good ethic.

Jason Kim wrote:

The preposterous claim is that Honnold would stop alongside you and say "Idk what's up but I'm sketching out here" and then continue on above you.  

You're right that I would probably hold Honnold or TC or some other well-known climber in different regard to some rando that is thrutching his way up a moderate (like me).  I don't see the problem in that. These guys (or gals) are crazy strong and experienced and they don't present any real risk.  Now if I'm on a 5.8 or whatever, and rando soloist dude has to stop and compose himself at the ledge we are standing on, yeah I'm going to worry a little.  That is reckless, and the person's first mistake was deciding to solo the climb in the first place.  

I don't care too much what people do or what risks they take.  We are all different.  But if you're going to knowingly climb past people, have your shit dialed in.  Or go climb something else.  Or get there first.  I don't mind being passed (although I do get annoyed if I get passed and then I end up being held up by the same party later on the climb).  I don't mind a soloist passing me, as long as the person has their shit together.  

/////

I'm assuming you've seen the video of Alex freaking out on half-dome(at an extremely easy part relative to the route) and saying almost exactly that to his cameraman. It's not preposterous, though Alex's level of climbing(and soloing) is much higher than your average, and it's not preposterous that any soloist of any level has a momentary lapse of concentration or will and needs to compose themself through it. I regularly climb .12+ trad and somedays don't have the head for 5.9 here in the gunks.

In reference to my last post soloists>leaders>topropers(again barring dickish/reckless exceptions) I hate to say this like this, but this is the pecking order whether you like it or not.

Edit: Lol, minor spray I agree, but what I said is true. Anybody can freak out at any time(I freaked out on a 5.8 last week) and unless this soloist is hyperventilating and elvis-legging uncontrollably, cut the guy/girl some slack. Soloing is not always just a perfectly choreographed dance up the rock.

Edit 2 for Spencer: Okay, you're right. So my opinion, take it or leave it, is sort of repetition of what I've said. Soloists>leaders>topropers barring overtly reckless/dickish behavior. If somebody seems relatively in control, maybe up and down climbs a couple sequences, or stops to compose themself, but otherwise seems okay, I wouldn't blink an eye at their behavior. Your situation as you described it seems fairly standard to me. On the other hand, if the soloist is standing there having an absolute mental breakdown perhaps offer a rescue before encouraging them to move forward haha. It's a grey scale, but watching somebody soloing is inherently always going to feel sketchy and reckless for the observer, so don't let your bias cloud your objective view of the situation.

Eric Marx wrote:

I actually agree with most of this because I don't particularly care what anybody does on the rock as long as they don't damage it, themselves or others. The unregulated nature of climbing is one of the primary benefits of climbing. 

Like leaders get priority over topropers, soloists get priority over leaders. Though, even the ethic of leaders>topropers is dying. "I woke up the earliest therefore this route belongs to me for the day." is certainly not a good ethic.

Jason Kim wrote:

The preposterous claim is that Honnold would stop alongside you and say "Idk what's up but I'm sketching out here" and then continue on above you.  

You're right that I would probably hold Honnold or TC or some other well-known climber in different regard to some rando that is thrutching his way up a moderate (like me).  I don't see the problem in that. These guys (or gals) are crazy strong and experienced and they don't present any real risk.  Now if I'm on a 5.8 or whatever, and rando soloist dude has to stop and compose himself at the ledge we are standing on, yeah I'm going to worry a little.  That is reckless, and the person's first mistake was deciding to solo the climb in the first place.  

I don't care too much what people do or what risks they take.  We are all different.  But if you're going to knowingly climb past people, have your shit dialed in.  Or go climb something else.  Or get there first.  I don't mind being passed (although I do get annoyed if I get passed and then I end up being held up by the same party later on the climb).  I don't mind a soloist passing me, as long as the person has their shit together.  

/////

I'm assuming you've seen the video of Alex freaking out on half-dome(at an extremely easy part relative to the route) and saying almost exactly that to his cameraman. It's not preposterous, though Alex's level of climbing(and soloing) is much higher than your average, and it's not preposterous that any soloist of any level has a momentary lapse of concentration or will and needs to compose themself through it. I regularly climb .12+ trad and somedays don't have the head for 5.9 here in the gunks.

In reference to my last post soloists>leaders>topropers(again barring dickish/reckless exceptions) I hate to say this like this, but this is the pecking order whether you like it or not.

We are kinda losing my main question here. I am not asking who has the right of way. I was asking when is it appropriate for me to call out someone for being "sketchy". Earlier in this thread it was mentioned not to mess with the "mindset" of the soloist mid solo. I agree with that. If I saw the guy/girl at the top of the climb eating a cliff bar I would have struck up a conversations with him/her asking him how he/she felt about passing us mid pitch. Since the couple soloist left... i have no other option but to whine on the internet. 

Spencer Ralston wrote:

. i have no other option but to whine on the internet. 

To be slightly pedantic - there's also, presumably, the option of doing whatever you would have done before the internet existed! [Unless, of course, that involved writing a stern letter to a climbing magazine which may no longer now exist.]

Eric Marx wrote:

Imagine the soloist was Alex Honnold and he stopped for a few minutes en-route and said, "Idk what's up but I'm sketching out here." Likely, you'd accept his level of comfort and would be posting here about how cool it was to watch Alex Honnold solo past you. You wouldn't consider for one second that Alex was a dick for soloing past you. Despite the preened, reel-rock image of soloing, Alex said in interviews he doesn't like to film onsight soloing because it would make many people uncomfortable, the amount of up/down climbing and prodding around before committing. 

The same logic applies. With rare exception, the soloist is likely significantly more experienced than you or your partner and gets the right of way, even if you feel uncomfortable with and intruded upon by their level of climbing, unless, of course, the soloist is intentionally being a dick or radically unsafe and reckless.

Being you are on Whitehorse. (a good portion of the slab routes have R/X pitches). What happens when the soloist biffs it and sends a leader riding down a R/X rated pitch with them?

clearly the sketched person on 5.5 isn’t unquestionably “highly experienced”.

Imagine the soloist was me and when you declined me passing I climb straight through you anyway, what are you gonna do? Push me off?

No one would ever know if he did!

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

No one would ever know if he did!

Jesus would.

Tradiban wrote:

Jesus would.

Baby Jesus would 

This is like the Godwin’s Law of MP. Any thread about soloing will eventually deteriorate towards comparison to Alex Honold.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law