[REDACTED] Argument - 5.7+ (Wild River Crag, CO)

Contact the dude directly via his MP profile?  Discuss it with him.  

If mobbing is the idea here, 10 people rating this route as bomb, will send it into oblivion.

And there isn't a damn thing Jim can do about that.

ErikaNWwrote:

I suggested a description change as well. Interesting that there’s push back on this considering some of the ridiculous route name changes/redactions that have been made over the last few years. This combined with much of the commentary in the CB thread makes me sick. These things are not joke material. 

This.

Also: why do we get threads that devolve in to the discussion of violence towards women, with mostly men hashing out the validity of the hurt it may cause (read: not the specifics of the alleged crimes, but the fact that discussing it at all might be distressing and/or triggering). There are reasons you hardly see women commenting on these threads. We’re out climbing or, more frequently, navigating a world where a good chunk of the population thinks they understand and can dictate our experiences better than we do.

Free speech and “just ignore it” commentary - give me a break. That is no excuse for not challenging what is hurtful, wrong, and plain embarrassing. Your fellow female climbers, partners, sisters and daughters expect better. Stand up for them. 

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117264293/anybody-repeat-jim-beyers-routes

Required reading for this thread.

“this is the guy who bragged on Supertopo about running down a mountain biker for fun, and driving over her bike when she didn't move it out of the way fast enough. Did he stop? No, he drove off laughing.”

“Jim Beyer is a running joke inflating the grades of his climbs, route vandal and sociopath.”

“It has been reliably reported that Jim has voiced hope that people would die on his routes.”

“he has been bolting around here lately and his routes are of the lowest quality. Sport routes on the choss rock in the canyon. Chain for hangers on the bolts, bolts not set anywhere close to proper. No one climbs them.”

Ezra Hendersonwrote:

It looks like that’s not the only bad one. The other routes are names “bad girlfriend”, “king freak”, and “peaceful journey”. 

What exactly is wrong with the names you just quoted? 

Fern Gullywrote:

What exactly is wrong with the names you just quoted? 

“Peaceful Journey” is especially hateful.

The fact you don’t recognize this is racialist.

This is a route name and description that are intended to cause pain. It is also an attempt to put women in their place by reminding them about the violence that can happen. There is a difference between that and edgy humor. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept. Gabby Petito was a person who was murdered by an intimate partner. Would you be cool with the route name if that was your kid? I think that we can draw the line at route names like these. 

As an aside, it sounds like the route should be chopped, because based on the description, it seems to be a piece of piss poor bolting. My guess is that the line was put up by some sad incel who should have his drill taken away before he does any more damage. I'm guessing this isn't the real Jim Bryer. 

Jess Arnoldwrote:

Also: why do we get threads that devolve in to the discussion of violence towards woman, with mostly men hashing out the validity of the hurt it may cause

Because big tough white men on the internet love to tell others to grow a thicker skin when it comes to issues that don't affect them.

Deirdrewrote:

My guess is that the line was put up by some sad incel who should have his drill taken away before he does any more damage. I'm guessing this isn't the real Jim Bryer. 

what if the real Jim Beyer IS a sad incel!?

Jess Arnoldwrote:

This.

Also: why do we get threads that devolve in to the discussion of violence towards woman, with mostly men hashing out the validity of the hurt it may cause (read: not the specifics of the alleged crimes, but the fact that discussing it at all might be distressing and/or triggering). There are reasons you hardly see women commenting on these threads. We’re out climbing or, more frequently, navigating a world where a good chunk of the population thinks they understand and can dictate our experiences better than we do.

Free speech and “just ignore it” commentary - give me a break. That is no excuse for not challenging what is hurtful, wrong, and plain embarrassing. Your fellow female climbers, partners, sisters and daughters expect better. Stand up for them. 

Why do we always get people turning things that at their root are about artistry and freedom of expression (as terrible an examples as this is), into a gender issue?

"Every good Crimp needs a Hoe" gets redacted while this shit is okay.   What a world.  We definitely need to dial back what we redacted but there's stuff out there that is warranted. 

Marc Hwrote:

Why do we always get people turning things that at their root are about artistry and freedom of expression (as terrible an examples as this is), into a gender issue?

With all due respect, because I think this is a valid question: it is a gender issue. Not everything is, and I think I know what you‘re getting at there - but this is.

Women are telling you it is an issue. We are telling you that this kind of conversation/semantics is hurtful. We’re telling you that the explicit conversation (and in some cases denial) of violence against women is distressing. I hope I don‘t have to explain why. 

At minimum, if we can’t challenge these ideas and have discourse on why it isn’t helping half (or more) of the population, it will continue to be an issue.

Believing women and those with starkly different lived experiences begins with listening, and I appreciate those who are. 

My understanding of MP route database management is very limited. 

Here is how I visualize it -
FA submits route information. Or, perhaps, some MP user willing to do all the finger work.
Area admins create route entry.

Let's take a look at the route in question. JB, whos appears to be a bag of dicks with multiple proofs of baggyness and dickyness is an easy person to blame. But, I would like to respectfully disagree. The true "Bags Of Dicks" award goes to those who created the entry and, effectively, publicized his misogyny 

So, perhaps we could hear from someone listed as area admins?
Would Leo Paik, John McNamee, Frances Fierst, Monty, Monomaniac, Tyler KC care to comment?

Random thought,

Climbing kind of has an identity crisis, where the loner, miscreant, anti-authority, rebel is championed until something like this happens, and then we're all like, "OH NO NOT LIKE THAT!". 

And I get that Beyer is an outlier way to the right on the bell curve. But elephant in the room.

Thanks Jess Arnold for your post(s).

You make very good points without attacking anyone based on their age or gender.

petzl logicwrote:

I would have liked to give the fa troll credit and think that maybe they created the route name before all of the facts had come to light but see that it was first put up only a few months ago. Obviously the name is a childish attempt to get a rise out of people from a troll and regret giving them any of the attention they crave. 

The route description goes like this:

I have suggested including the line Gabby was a victim of domestic abuse and murder instead of the last part of what is there but was rejected by a Mountain Project admin, saying:

In any case, I think trivializing her death is disrespectful and lacks humour. Can anyone come up with a better suggestion that could be approved or should this just be redacted? Personally, I don't think installing a few bolts and an anchor doesn't give you special rights to be a dick, but obviously this guy, Charlie Barrett, and others have felt differently.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/122870421/gabby-petitos-last-argument

How about deleting the last name and just using the first name, would that be a good compromise? “Gabby’s Last Argument”. The specific targeting of this poor woman is the problem, yes?

Todd Jenkinswrote:

Contact the dude directly via his MP profile?  Discuss it with him.  

I am not going to do that because I don't think there is anything to discuss with him. I don't need to provide him an explanation of why I think he's a moron, and he doesn't need to opine to me about his right to "free speech". If he wants to call it that to his friends or put in his own guidebook, I don't control those things. I don't control Mountain Project either, but I am a participant here on a forum and crowdsourced route database and this is about what that community thinks is an acceptable name and description since we share this space. If these are the standards that we hold to ourselves to (i.e. none) then to me the site is no different than a 4chan, etc. It's just words on a screen, I am not "hurt" by them, but I also think it is a small change to edit the description and (perhaps) title, far easier than driving across the country to deface it, anyway. If everyone thinks that the name and description is cool, I guess I'll have to accept that I have a minority opinion. So it goes.

amariuswrote:

My understanding of MP route database management is very limited. 

Here is how I visualize it -
FA submits route information. Or, perhaps, some MP user willing to do all the finger work.
Area admins create route entry.

Let's take a look at the route in question. JB, whos appears to be a bag of dicks with multiple proofs of baggyness and dickyness is an easy person to blame. But, I would like to respectfully disagree. The true "Bags Of Dicks" award goes to those who created the entry and, effectively, publicized his misogyny 

So, perhaps we could hear from someone listed as area admins?
Would Leo Paik, John McNamee, Frances Fierst, Monty, Monomaniac, Tyler KC care to comment?

Hi amarius — each route listing has a ‘shared by’ — that is the person who created the entry.

If we do change it, may I suggest, "Gabby and Brian were toxic. They died. May their families find peace." Or better yet, leave out the toxic duo and just call it, "May their families find peace."

Just refer to the route as Last Argument. There’s a long history of obnoxious / tedious route names being shortened. Butthole express at Dixon commonly called The Express, renaming of illusion dweller, etc etc.

Last argument, 5.7+ one star choss put up by some guy. Done.