Climber Charles Barrett Arrested for Yosemite Sexual Assaults

Yurywrote:

You may call it victim blaming but people with common sense call it risk management.
Would you teach your own daughter to follow this approach and get drunk in a company of strangers?

Yury, what about the people that they thought they could trust before they got assaulted? Actually, before you answer, maybe consider taking a deep breath, stepping away from the computer and having some conversations with women about their experiences. And, the secret ingredient is, of course, listening.

Some people are actually suggesting you shouldn't minimize risk? And if you point out how, you are "victim blaming"?  

Minimizing your risk is not the same as letting the perp off the hook. I didn't realize this was such a difficult concept.  But it is.  

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Edit: Petzl, I was speaking in general terms - not just alcohol and not just this case. But being drunk increases everyone's risk for any situation.

Given the context that we don't even know what role, if any, alcohol played in this case, how could the pleas to "minimize risk" around drinking be anything other than victim blaming? 

Yurywrote:

You may call it victim blaming but people with common sense call it risk management.
Would you teach your own daughter to follow this approach and get drunk in a company of strangers?

Everyone is a stranger, that’s the moral of the tale. My story was not about being drunk it was about being drugged which can happen anywhere at any time. Should women not date? Should they not have food or drinks on the first date? Should they climb with all their gear including water to avoid being drugged. Let’s play this all the way out- risk management is not teaching womxn to be afraid all the time it’s about teaching men to not rape. Blaming a womxn for being taken advantage of in any form is victim blaming. Risk management yes sure I love teaching any young adult about risk management, would I let my daughter go to a party with strangers? Yes,  if she’s drinking a coke or a tequila the risk for being drugged is the same. The risk for assault is similar. 

I'm posting my favorite video to use with students to teach affirmative consent. This is what we need to teach. 

Face Palmwrote:

CrimperGirl is Dr. Callie Marie Rennison, the leader of the Safe Outside work https://americanalpineclub.org/safeoutside

for climbing, her data is the narrative

but most of you are missing the point

we are not going to help CB's victims by arguing about statistics

Apparently the safeoutside survey found 47% of women had been sexually assaulted.  https://www.climbing.com/news/safe-outside-the-facts-about-sexual-harassment-and-assault-in-the-climbing-community/

Over the years several women decided the could safely talk to me about their experiences.  Once I was in early to work and three female coworkers were also in early taking to each other.  One was recently assaulted and all 3 decided to tell me their stories.  I'm shock by how many women have been sexually assaulted.  These are their stories to tell or not.  If no woman has told you of their experiences then they either do not think you are good enough friends to talk about such issues with or they do not feel safe talking to you about it or they do not see any good reason to talk about their experiences.  But have no doubt many have these experiences. 

Sarah Zwrote:

One time in my younger years I went to a club, watched my one drink, and was roofied regardless….. I was lucky that time but to say don’t get drunk around strangers or people you don’t trust is victim blaming. Also intimate partner violence and sexual coercion are both forms of sexual assault so I said what I said. Those types of comments are not helpful and contribute to the victim is responsible for being raped mindset. Yes teach your at risk children to protect themselves because it appears there is still a whole gaggle of people who think no means yes. 

Sarah, doesn't your last sentence contradict what went before it? I think there's a big difference between advising people before something bad happens to them and blaming them after it happens.

  Not in any way trying to dimmish the conversation about how terrible of a problem sexual assault is. I am advocating everyone  regardless of gender to have good situational awareness.   date rape is likly one of the most common occurrences and I am not suer what you can do to prevent that because dudes are on their best behavior and trying not to show their faults when they are trying to get laid.  I do know that getting hammered won't help any situation.  getting hammered is maximizing risk..  Heck I don't care what gender you are it bothers me when folks wear ear buds in public. can't think of a better way to block your situational awareness.  Except maybe getting hammered and wearing ear buds.  Even pro athletes get run over by trucks training with ear buds. way back in the days of the sony walkman one of the Mahre brothers got mangled by a groomer skiing with headphones...   Situational awareness.  I pack up my camp every evening, park the van pointing out, everything is set and ready to roll. I know where the keys are and all I have to do is jump up front and drive..  Curtains and privacy glass are key.   about 6 years ago in the tetons , south of jackson at a fishing access parking lot there was a young lady sleeping in a subi in her underwear. it was hot so she had the back hatch and a side door open and no curtains or anything. broad daylight. empty beer cans etc..   I really hope that she has survived and thrived in this life but ocasionally I remember that scene and worry that she did not fare well over time... maximizing risk.... 

How is “womxn” pronounced and why is it used?

Edit for Todd:  never seen that word and definitely didn’t know people prefer that word.

Edit edit:   Hahaha Bo is a funny guy. Point taken. The first two things I read contradicted each other. I didn’t think it was meant to be exclusive but it definitely seems like it is

Wow, this blew up since checking in last night.  Understand all the points (except most of Yury, no surprise).   I think it’s possible to agree with the Bruno take AND some of the responses/rebuttals and extensions.  I have two daughters in early HS so this is an important issue that I don’t take lightly any way you slice it.  I have extremely close and intimate relationships (friends, partners, family) with survivors whose situations run the gamut.  

I don’t think the advice to avoid being drunk and out of control (risk mitigation in more than just SA scenarios) equates in any way to second guessing clothing types (completely different) or blaming after the fact or “making allowances” for the abuser

When climbing with my daughters,  we share advice, beta, discuss proper and safe technique, etc but I don’t blame or shame them for falling at the crux. It’s learning and trying and doing our best. We grow and learn together and support each other. I have their backs if shit happens, but we train to avoid shit happening.

They know that if the worst happens, THEY drive the bus on what they need and how they want to move forward.  I’ll just listen and take my cues from them.   Maybe they just want hugs and a shoulder to cry on.  Maybe they want a full court press legal-wise.  They won’t feel pressured one way or the other, but if they say there’s a hole needs some fillin’ somewhere…then some holes get filled.  

I think one of the key issues with respect to the overall sexual assault problem not yet addressed much in this thread….we are mostly preaching to the choir here, and some of the most dangerous people are in the “choir”  
The people we need to identify and root out more so than the cold blooded stranger rapist (which CB seems more and more potentially like, based on the info presented here, which is alarming that he ran amongst us not “under the radar” but fully blipping on screen) but the ones who are “fully against sexual assault” and sincerely believe they are, and yet are guilty of doing it, but don’t see themselves as “that guy”.

How do you fight total lack of understanding and self-awareness? 

Here I saw discussion if it is moral to buy climbing guide book from this guy but I don't understand why people think this guy is guilty?

Sarah Zwrote:

My story ... was about being drugged which can happen anywhere at any time.
Yes,  if she’s drinking a coke or a tequila the risk for being drugged is the same. The risk for assault is similar.  

Sarah Z, thank you for sharing your womxn perspective.
It looks like I made a wrong assumption that most people behave similar to my friends and acquaintances.
It looks like your friends and acquaintances are different.

Sarah Z wrote:

... risk management is ... about teaching men to not rape.

Sarah Z, you speak about men and women assuming all of them are the same.
They are different.
Teaching 95% of men who do not rape not to rape is useless because it would not affect their behavior.
Teaching 4% of men who rape not to rape is useless because it also would not affect their behavior.
There is a small percent of men that can be affected by such education and effectiveness of such education is limited.
Relying on such education instead of proper risk management/awareness training may be dangerous for women.

 Regardless of the education, due to risky behavior of young males (that is due to the known biology laws) some of them will be raping women regardless of consequences.

Average Forumuserwrote:

In addition to the sentencing document and cpo posted earlier .Here's what I dug up,  Reports, restraining orders, Criminal protective orders. No innuendo here folks. 

He has a criminal record

(this is to respond to the post by marjan bohnec.)

Yurywrote:

 Regardless of the education, due to risky behavior of young males (that is due to the known biology laws) some of them will be raping women regardless of consequences.

Bullshit.  The biology of men in Denmark is no different than men in the US, but somehow they manage to avoid forcing their dicks into women 4x less often than in the states.  Rape cannot be excused or explained by "biological laws".  It can be explained by rapists, and cultures that allow rapists to flourish.

Famous Climberwrote:

Uh, yeah, crazy. https://tahoequarterly.com/people/haven-for-a-famous-rock-climber. Read down to Seeking New Challenges. 

damn, i missed that. i wonder how many of us could be in the same situation, you meet up with someone on Partner Finder and don't know that they have spent time in prison, etc, and how much (if any) they have been rehabilitated? 

also, when did alex learn this info and how does he feel knowing it now? by extending friendship to a predator (this word seems justified with the release of previous restraining orders) you are granting them more access to people in additional circles. would the people in the ST thread like to take back their words?

i guess the final most surprising thing after reading his Asana interview is that this guy who dropped out of high school published THREE books. that editors can turn gobblygook into something useful for people is nothing short of magic. 

ubuwrote:

Bullshit.  The biology of men in Denmark is no different than men in the US, but somehow they manage to avoid forcing their dicks into women 4x less often than in the states.  Rape cannot be excused or explained by "biological laws".  It can be explained by rapists, and cultures that allow rapists to flourish.

That is not accurate. The biology of men can vary pretty decently from area to area. Neanderthal genetics are a lot more prevalent in Europeans compared to anyone else, for example.

Rape is bad, but I ain’t gonna use false scientific claims to preach against it

The second half of your last sentence was the only true thing you’ve said. Rape was extremely common, everywhere, including Denmark 200+ years ago. It’s all about culture. Doesn’t matter where the culture is located. There will always be outliers unfortunately. What’s his face is correct that there will always be rapists, even if to a very small amount.

Erik Strandwrote:

That is not accurate. The biology of men can vary pretty decently from area to area. Neanderthal genetics are a lot more prevalent in Europeans compared to anyone else, for example.

Rape is bad, but I ain’t gonna use false scientific claims to preach against it

The second half of your last sentence was the only true thing you’ve said. Rape was extremely common, everywhere, including Denmark 200+ years ago. It’s all about culture. Doesn’t matter where the culture is located. There will always be outliers unfortunately. What’s his face is correct that there will always be rapists, even if to a very small amount.

Erik, as a biologist, I can tell you that what you write about genetics, and the biology of men varying significantly from area to area, is completely untrue.  It's an amateur claim, and ignores the science.  To make this claim as way to explain the differing rates of rape between the US and Denmark is frankly ridiculous.  Then you contradict yourself a few sentences later by saying everyting is culture.  I think you need to reason through this a little more.  

Bruno Schullwrote:

Erik, as a biologist, I can tell you that what you write about genetics, and the biology of men varying significantly from area to area, is completely untrue.  It's an amateur claim, and ignores the science.  To make this claim as way to explain the differing rates of rape between the US and Denmark is frankly ridiculous.  Then you contradict yourself a few sentences later by saying everyting is culture.  I think you need to reason through this a little more.  

Seems you misunderstand what I said and you recognize it, but you want to disagree with me. An interesting stance to take. I'm not going to bother engaging with such ludicrousness. Also, I can share a video of a PHD biologist going on about how there are somewhere around 12 major "families" than can be fairly easily identified through testing of your genetics. 

Erik Strandwrote:

Seems you misunderstand what I said and you recognize it, but you want to disagree with me. An interesting stance to take. I'm not going to bother engaging with such ludicrousness. Also, I can share a video of a PHD biologist going on about how there are somewhere around 12 major "families" than can be fairly easily identified through testing of your genetics. 

Seems someone read “Brian Sykes for Dummies”…and didn’t understand it.