Climber Charles Barrett Arrested for Yosemite Sexual Assaults

Interesting.  

I have a daughter, and I will absolutely tell her to avoid get drunk around people she doesn't know, trust, or care about.  

(If I had a son, I would definitely tell him that no means no, that consent needs to be implicit, and that if a girl/boy/partner is on drugs, consent can not be adequately provided.)

When I say, "Try to avoid getting drunk around people you don't know or trust or care about," I am not suggesting that she would bear any particular blame in a case of sexual assualt, beyond the responsability we all should have for our own saftey in potentially dangerous situations.  

Perhaps this the part of what makes this discussion of blame and responsability complicated. 

On one hand, women are consistently blamed and shamed in sexual assault cases. This is a terrrible aspect of such crimes, and a reflection of widespread underlying sexism and misogny.

On the other hand, everybody bears some responsability for their own safety.  For example, if I went to a rough neighborhood, got drunk, and was robbed and beaten, I would bear some responsability engaging in dangerous behavior. 

A woman getting drunk around men should not be dangerous but it obviously is.  So what should we tell our daughters, sisters, and friends?

Bruno Schullwrote:

Interesting.  

I have a daughter, and I will absolutely tell her to avoid get drunk around people she doesn't know, trust, or care about.  

(If I had a son, I would definitely tell him that no means no, that consent needs to be implicit, and that if a girl/boy/partner is on drugs, consent can not be adequately provided.)

When I say, "Try to avoid getting drunk around people you don't know or trust or care about," I am not suggesting that she would bear any particular blame in a case of sexual assualt, beyond the responsability we all should have for our own saftey in potentially dangerous situations.  

Perhaps this the part of what makes this discussion of blame and responsability complicated. 

On one hand, women are consistently blamed and shamed in sexual assault cases. This is a terrrible aspect of such crimes, and a reflection of widespread underlying sexism and misogny.

On the other hand, everybody bears some responsability for their own safety.  For example, if I went to a rough neighborhood, got drunk, and was robbed and beaten, I would bear some responsability engaging in dangerous behavior. 

A woman getting drunk around men should not be dangerous but it obviously is.  So what should we tell our daughters, sisters, and friends?

 

^^^

Bruno has what's called "common sense."

What some of these comments are missing is the fact that often people who commit rape and other forms of abuse are people the victim knows and trusts. It is a key part of intimate partner violence and coercive control. So, really loud for the people in the back row, saying don't drink with someone you don't trust is NOT FUCKING HELPFUL!!! 

 Todd you absoluty damn well better tell your kids not to get drunk or high with people they don't 100% trust.  If you get shitfaced out in public and bad things happen to you you absolutly bear responsibility for what happened same as you would if you ran someone over with your car. this dosent take any responsibility for the crime off of the perp but its a burden the victim absolutly will have to live with.  drugs and alcohol are never an acceptable excuse for bad behavior and that includes passing out in public.  My bad dosent cut it when you cripple or kill someone because you have addiction  issues and it will also be something you will have to live with if you put yourself in a bad situation and get hurt because you were shitfaced.   i trashed my shoulder on a rope swing once  hammered on genny cream ale. My fault. if I pass out on a pool table and get sodomized with a pool cue that will also be my fault for putting myself in that situation.  The sick person who did the deed is absolutely 100% at fault but I also have to live with putting myself in that place and time  with no control over my situation.  Don't get so hung up on political correctness that you forget all sense of personal responsibility. drugs and alcohol suck. 2 people just OD'ed in a motel  1/2 mile from my local crag.   

Tradiban wrote:

Semantics. Link?

Yes, and that shows the legal system will accept drunkenness as “diminished capacity” or whatever you want to call it. My point is that the argument works both ways, it shouldn’t, but it is things of this nature that allow rapists, murderers, etc off the hook (sort of).

You can provide your own link for your original claim that drunkenness was successfully used to  give someone a temporary insanity defense in a murder trial.

The legal system will accept that drunkenness doesn’t allow a person to give informed consent.  This is different than reducing or removing responsibility for an action.   The argument dose not ‘work both ways’.

On a side note, diminished capacity isn’t ‘whatever I want to call it’. It’s a legal term that means a person wasn’t able to reach a mental state required to intend to participate in or commit an action. 

Drunk drivers who kill, almost never serve the length of time as someone who stabbed or shot a random stranger.

drunkenness sadly does often (although it shouldn’t) decrease sentence length.

@ Todd and Andrew, I appreciate what you have brought to this thread, and I hope we can keep this civil.  We're talking about what we think is best for our children, so of course emotions run high. 

I don't think it's fair to equate my advice to my daughter, "Don't drink around people you don't trust," to putting my arm around my daughter who has just been raped and saying, "Well, you shouldn't have worn that short skirt" (as per your example).  I think there are important differences between these statements, as I will try to explain below.

@Deirdre, it sounds like you do great work.  It must be a little like being a public defender, but from a different angle?  I have been a high school teacher and counselor for over twenty years, and have had the clothing, drugs, sex, violence talk with countless teenage boys and girls, both before and after terrible things happened.  I think about it this way.  People in general, but especially young people, can and will do dangerous things, they will make mistakes, they will get lucky, they will get hurt, some of them won't survive, and some of them will make it through but never be the same again.  I put myself in the latter category. 

So, when I tell my daughter and my students (male and female) that they shouldn't get drunk or otherwise altered around people they don't trust in unfamilair circumstances, I am acknowledging the risks of the world, and trying to steer them through as safely as possible.

Just as sexual assault is a reality, victim shaming and blaming is a reality.  So, once again, with my daiughter and my students, I rely on detailed, nuanced conversations, backed up with examples, and lots or questions, answers, and clarifications, to help them understand the difference between assuming the responsability to keep yourself safe--because it's a matter of survival--and working to build a society where people can wear whatever they want, do whatever they want, and not risk being assaulted.  I find that most young people understand and appreciate these differences instinctively.  They completely understand that I am not blaming them by telling them not to get drunk around people they don't trust; they recognize that I am just doing my best to keep them safe, which is my role as an educator, parent, and friend.  Yes, I think of my students as my friends.

More generally, I think some of the voices on this thread are confusing the way they wish the word was with the way it actually is.  I would love it if my daughter and students could grow up in a world where they didn't have to worry about what they wear or what they drink when they go out to have fun, but we don't live in that world.  So we have to do what we can.  Having these conversations--like this exchange on this thread--is part of changing the world and making it a better place, so I reallu like the fact that people are expressing their vision of the world they wished they lived in.  

But until we reach that goal, I will keep advising the young people I love to try to avoid dangerous situations as much as possible.  I beleive that anything less would be unrealistic and unresponsible.  

Derek DeBruinwrote:

You know a rapist personally. It is almost guaranteed.... Sexual assault is incredibly common, and is perpetrated dominantly by repeat offenders.
Depending on how its defined and who's doing the research, about 1 in 5 women in the U.S. is a sexual assault survivor ...

Derek DeBruin, you memorized progressive liberal propaganda well.
However, most likely these numbers are significantly exaggerated.
I found research of CrimperGirl on Supertopo more credible and she reported numbers significantly lower than yours.

As for my experience I am not aware of anybody among my friends who has been raped or raped somebody.
Do I socialize with wrong people?

Yurywrote:

I found research of CrimperGirl on Supertopo more credible and she reported numbers significantly lower than yours.

because it better fits your personal narrative?

@ CN--thanks for your post--our messages crossed.  

The questions you raised in your original shorter post (now at the top of your longer post) are good examples of the ways that woman are so often blamed and shamed in assault cases.  I am aware of this reality, but it's always good to be reminded. 

As for the rest, I expressed myself as clearly as possible in my post above.  I don't know if what I wrote shifts your perspective at all about where I am coming from, but, suffice to say, I think it's brave for a woman and assault victim to contribute to this thread.  Your contributions are vital.  I hope you stick around.

Andrew Rice wrote:

Agree. Particularly in the context of this thread about CB's arrest. I know that all my friend did was to go to bed alone in a friend's house, totally sober. She still woke up to a very unpleasant surprise from someone she didn't even know. This isn't on the victims. 

why did you wait 17 pages to say that you knew the victim?

and why are you talking about priests and celebrities instead of trying to get specific information that could help the case?

i gave a pointer to internet convos of people that were close to CB at the time of the incident

who was RyanD, who were in CBs climbing circle, they likely know something, but nobody wants to talk about that or name names

climbing partners talk a lot, they talk in the car, they talk on the approach, they talk at bivies, you get to know people well

no way CB did not talk about his behavior to the people that made "appreciation" threads for him

instead we are pretending to be legal experts on being drunk and consent, and joking about hitler paintings

who was there, enabling and ignoring the rape culture that led to this crime?

if you want to get to the truth you have to ask hard questions and be prepared for answers you don't like

djkyote wrote:

So what did Locker say.?

It's quoted in the reply to it upthread.

I interpreted it as an attempt at sardonic humor....but yes, a fail for me also. It doesn't read very well, from my side of it, but I also don't think it was meant badly. Just....a fail. It happens.

I chose to let it pass, see if anyone else raised an eyebrow and replied, but no. That was a disappointing wait.

Best, Helen

PWZwrote:

because it better fits your personal narrative?

CrimperGirl is Dr. Callie Marie Rennison, the leader of the Safe Outside work https://americanalpineclub.org/safeoutside

for climbing, her data is the narrative

but most of you are missing the point

we are not going to help CB's victims by arguing about statistics

Face Palmwrote:

CrimperGirl is Dr. Callie Marie Rennison, the leader of the Safe Outside work https://americanalpineclub.org/safeoutside

for climbing, her data is the narrative

but most of you are missing the point

we are not going to help CB's victims by arguing about statistics

I'm not arguing statistics, I'm arguing Yury's general personality anytime a topic of this type comes up.

C N wrote:

What if you got drunk in a “safe” neighborhood? If a friend comes to you and says they got robbed and beaten are you gonna give the perpetuator more leeway if your friend was drunk? Should your friend being drunk and vulnerable be brought up in trial to determine if the perpetuator is guilty of beating and robbing someone? I understand the general point you’re trying to make though, and I do appreciate your participation in this thread!

As someone who has been assaulted twice in completely different circumstances, let me give some advice as one of the few women in this thread:

1. Teach both your daughters and sons to mitigate risk surrounding drugs, alcohol, etc. I’ve heard people say in this thread that alcohol can turn men into sociopaths or make them more dangerous but people are only advocating teaching daughters to no get drunk around strange men. Also emphasize that no one is perfect and if they don’t make all the right choices and something happens, it’s never their fault. You want your close ones to trust you to not judge them and be able to reach out to you if something. No one is saying don’t teach people to use drugs responsibly, it’s just that if an assault happens, its not productive to bring that up on your own if a victim opens up to you. 

To expand on this:

1. There are many ways to mitigate risk around drugs and alcohol. Avoiding certain types of settings is one way. So is establishing a trusted person that you can go to or call if something feels off. So is being willing to "make a scene" (something that women too often are taught not to do) if someone is behaving in a harmful way. So is learning techniques for bystander intervention. (This mitigates risk for the people around you, not for you personally--but the more people who learn and practice this, the safer everyone is.) 

2. To repeat what Deirdre said earlier, perpetrators of sexual violence are very often people the victim knows and trusts. Sexual violence often occurs in situations that should be "safe." Teach kids that consent, once given, can always be withdrawn. Teach them that consenting to one thing does not mean a person consents to another thing. Teach them that all parties involved need to give enthusiastic consent. Teach them that coercion is never okay. Teach them ways to keep their friends safe and how to safely and effectively intervene if they're worried something unsafe is going on. Personally, I wish I'd gotten more messaging about this growing up and less about the dangers of dangerous strangers lurking in alleyways and at bars. 

Ezra Elliswrote:

Drunk drivers who kill, almost never serve the length of time as someone who stabbed or shot a random stranger.

drunkenness sadly does often (although it shouldn’t) decrease sentence length.

It is not the intoxication that is the key element of your example, but the mens rea is. A drunk driver had the intent to get drunk and drive, not kill someone. However, if I get drunk and pissed off, and then I shoot and kill someone, I very much had the intent to kill that individual, regardless of my intoxicated state. See the difference?  

Yurywrote:

Derek DeBruin, you memorized progressive liberal propaganda well.
However, most likely these numbers are significantly exaggerated.
I found research of CrimperGirl on Supertopo more credible and she reported numbers significantly lower than yours.

As for my experience I am not aware of anybody among my friends who has been raped or raped somebody.
Do I socialize with wrong people?

Sexual assault includes rape, but it is broader than that.

Yury, perhaps you're only thinking of adults, here?

We're pretty sure my husband, who died as a chronic alcoholic who started drinking at 12, was sexually molested/abused as a kid, perhaps by his grandmother.

And just because you are not aware, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. 

I would also say that it may not be true that people who knew CB knew this was going on. People can be very very adept at fitting in. Most people aren't what you think they are, unless you are very close friends, and maybe not even then. My husband hid his problems very well....until it all came crashing down.

To the parents on here?

Definitely stay a safe person for your young person to talk to, about anything. Daughters or sons, need to learn to be cautious, unfortunately. I'd say, not just don't do stupid stuff if you aren't with someone you trust, as we all know stupid stuff will come up. It's a big ask, but instead, have someone around that you trust, for anything that might become a stupid stuff situation. And that means someone sober and able to assess and help. Or at least simply be an extra person there.

For the rest of us, who may have young friends you know well?

I gave my phone number to the neighbor kids as they got to be teens. It was a call me, any time, no matter what, I'll come grab you, no strings attached. Get out of the situation. None of them ever needed it, but they knew the offer was there, without the further difficulties of dealing with parents.

The closest I came was riding to the hospital with a teen after a really stupid car wreck near my business. Very full load of teenagers, ostensibly getting a ride home after school (teen driver) and it somehow seemed a fun idea to run every single stop sign. Until it abruptly wasn't fun. Six kids taken to the hospital, minor to major injuries.

Stupid happens. 

Like they say, good judgement comes from bad.

But that does not get idiots/jerks/predators off the hook for their actions.

Best, Helen

EDIT to add, 

Anyone else see the parallels in picking climbing partners, in this last stretch of comments?

We choose to do something inherently dangerous and potentially lethal, usually involving other people.

There's a considerable amount of risk analysis, and a whole helluva lot of trust.

One time in my younger years I went to a club, watched my one drink, and was roofied regardless….. I was lucky that time but to say don’t get drunk around strangers or people you don’t trust is victim blaming. Also intimate partner violence and sexual coercion are both forms of sexual assault so I said what I said. Those types of comments are not helpful and contribute to the victim is responsible for being raped mindset. Yes teach your at risk children to protect themselves because it appears there is still a whole gaggle of people who think no means yes. 

Face Palmwrote:

CrimperGirl is Dr. Callie Marie Rennison, the leader of the Safe Outside work https://americanalpineclub.org/safeoutside

She also published a few papers on sexual assault.

Sarah Zpluswrote:

... say don’t get drunk around strangers or people you don’t trust is victim blaming.

You may call it victim blaming but people with common sense call it risk management.
Would you teach your own daughter to follow this approach and get drunk in a company of strangers?