Rappelling wit a Grigri

Use an over hand on a bight instead of butterfly. It has a flat side much like euro death knot. Less likely to snag. 

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

The only downside to rapping with a Grigri is that it gets worn out a lot quicker. Otherwise, it's a lot safer, so long as your biner block doesn't get hung up one anything. The Grivel HMS Twin Gate carabiners are great for not getting hung up on features. I've used that one almost every Biner block I've done and have never had it stuck for long. 

I usually just simul rap or fix with an ATC but that is good to know. 

I also only know one person who has worn through a grigri enough to retire it. Grigris are like 60$ if you know where to look. Worth it for me at least.

Matt Z wrote:

If one person brings an ATC, you can pre-rig the ATC for a double-strand rappel. That fixes the two brake strands and you can rappel one strand on a grigri. Once the first partner is at the next anchor, the pre-rigged partner rappels as usual with the ATC. No carabiner or knot block needed, and no simul-rappelling needed either. In a team of three, a person can be rappelling on each brake strand at the same time, speeding things up substantially 

Wow that's super cool. One question tho. Are you saying that the person on the gri gri and tge person on the atc are rappelling at the same time? Wouldn't the person on the gri gri act like a fireman's for the atc person?

Dylan H wrote:

Wow that's super cool. One question tho. Are you saying that the person on the gri gri and tge person on the atc are rappelling at the same time? Wouldn't the person on the gri gri act like a fireman's for the atc person?

No, the ATC rappeller waits until the GriGri rappeller is at the next anchor and unweights the rope.

Brandon R wrote:

If you’re forcing the team to use a method that increases the odds of a problem happening...

Conversely, failing to arrest a leader fall is a big problem, too, that the grigri helps protect against.

I think it’s fair that you take on all responsibility 

It might make for a better climbing partnership to discuss things in advance of leaving the ground so that responsiblity is shared, since it necessarily has to be anyway in a climbing team.

I used to only bring an ATC-Guide on multi but now carry both ATC and Grigri

The current iteration of the Grigri weighs less than a #3 C4

Derek DeBruin wrote:

Conversely, failing to arrest a leader fall is a big problem, too, that the grigri helps protect against.

I don't believe this is true.  I,ve seen one huge fall with a grigri and heard of another.  Never seen or heard of large falls with an atc.  Just getting into the MP spirit here, almost anything is safe used correctly.

Drederek wrote:

I don't believe this is true.  I,ve seen one huge fall with a grigri and heard of another.  Never seen or heard of large falls with an atc.   Just getting into the MP spirit here, almost anything is safe used correctly.

My point remains that it's a tradeoff of potential hazards. The preceding post pointed out potential drawbacks of using a grigri and stated them definitively, without considering the potential benefits, as though the decision had only drawbacks, which is simply untrue. I offered one potential benefit.

"Safe" is also not absolute, but a relative position on a continuum (with a potentially large number of dimensions); we can't define something as strictly "safe." For example, it's safe to ride a motorcycle however you want as long as everything goes correctly. It's far safer to ride a motorcycle with a helmet and appropriate clothing. The case to worry about is not when everything goes correctly, but indeed the opposite, since that's the case that causes harm.

Bear in mind you're also reporting anecdotal evidence; the grigri indeed helps arrest a falling leader. Per EN-15151 standard, the grigri can arrest a fall independently. It has been demonstrated to do so at least a couple times in rockfall incidents (you can find reports in the ANAC database at Hellgate cliffs in Little Cottonwood Canyon outside SLC, UT if you're interested; there's also a related MP thread). That is a significant benefit over a tube device, hip belay, munter, etc. (all of which I'm sure have been used to catch FF2 falls). This says nothing of the simul-climbing, ascending, hauling, top belaying, or other use cases. It's specious to state definitively that using a grigri only increases the odds of a problem happening (let alone that a single member of the party should be solely responsible for the outcomes of a decision that affects a team).

As for the ATC, tubes were almost certainly the dominant device (certainly when compared to a grigri) for several decades. So, there's several decades of accidents involving big falls that were belayed on an ATC. I've seen a few.

As for the MP spirit, I much prefer first principles, logic, empirical evidence, research data, practical experience, tacit knowledge, physics, that sort of thing. Pretty sure that means I'm gonna die, though ;)

oskar blues wrote:

My friends tell me I have no business bringing a grigri on a multi pitch as it is a sport climbing thing.

Your friends are wrong. While many people do leave the Grigri at home for multi-pitch, many others find the small bit of extra weight to be worth it for the benefits a Grigri.

As someone else said, you might look into a Giga Jul. With its two modes, you kind of get a Grigri and an ATC in one device. It's what I pack for long multi-pitches or when I'm getting on a plane for a climbing trip and want all essential gear in my carry-on.

oskar blues wrote:

My friends tell me that rappelling with a grigri on a butterfly knot on a multi pitch route is unsafe.   It almost seems like a hands free (obviously I don't go hands free) way of doing it.  My friends tell me I have no business bringing a grigri on a multi pitch as it is a sport climbing thing.  I always bring an atc as backup.  I guess the ultimate question is am I creating bad habits and should I change how I do it or should I just continue doing what I am doing?  If I should change, what is the better way and why is my way bad?

Belaying somebody with a Gri Gri is safer, and it’s more versatile for self-rescue. Rappelling with a Gri Gri isn’t unsafe either. The only unsafe thing I can think of is that when you pull your ropes after rappelling, using an extra knot and carabiner is more likely to get stuck on something 

Or, the person insisting on bringing the grigri can just bring a tube device too, especially since weight doesn’t seem to be a issue. A gigajul accomplishes this as well, as mentioned. I think a stuck rope is a more likely outcome than a fall that can’t be arrested by an atc in the hands of a competent belayer, and a stuck rope has the potential to turn into a really dangerous situation. 

Connor Dobson wrote:

I never understood the hate for brining grigris on a multipitch. If you are setting up an arc in guide mode, the extra weight of the second locker makes it mostly a wash in terms of mass. It's a lot more secure, more versatile and honestly feeds better when belaying from above. 

I mean look at people free climbing hard routes, they are mostly using grigris.

I am with you Connor. I remember using my gri-gri 4-5 different ways on wall (managing 2 man hauling, requisite boring aid belaying and pig rodeo raps ***super bonus unlocked***)  when they first came out in the 90's and haven't looked back since...

oskar blues wrote:

My friends tell me that rappelling with a grigri on a butterfly knot on a multi pitch route is unsafe.   It almost seems like a hands free (obviously I don't go hands free) way of doing it.  My friends tell me I have no business bringing a grigri on a multi pitch as it is a sport climbing thing.  I always bring an atc as backup.  I guess the ultimate question is am I creating bad habits and should I change how I do it or should I just continue doing what I am doing?  If I should change, what is the better way and why is my way bad?

Sounds like you are using a biner block? Things can get hectic in climbing and you could plug in the wrong side and die.

The knot gets caught on stuff on the way down and the biner could hit someone in the face, probably you.

Simul rap? You misjudge center and both of you die.

If you must, save the gri for belay only and rap in an ATC or better yet buy a Smart Alpine or Jul.

Godspeed!

Mike Climberson wrote:

Belaying somebody with a Gri Gri is safer, and it’s more versatile for self-rescue. Rappelling with a Gri Gri isn’t unsafe either. The only unsafe thing I can think of is that when you pull your ropes after rappelling, using an extra knot and carabiner is more likely to get stuck on something 

Grigri climber raps first. Subsequent climber(s) removes blocking knot and raps with ATC. No pull-down issues.

Drederek wrote:

I,ve seen one huge fall with a grigri and heard of another.  Never seen or heard of large falls with an atc.

Right - people expecting large falls bring grigris.

Tradiban wrote:

Simul rap? You misjudge center and both of you die.

Can you please clarify?

My understanding is that if you have a proper simul rap setup (closed system, both climbers tethered together) then you should not have this issue. Am I misunderstanding something, or are you assuming that the system is not closed?

Thanks

Spinsser H wrote:

Can you please clarify?

My understanding is that if you have a proper simul rap setup (closed system, both climbers tethered together) then you should not have this issue. Am I misunderstanding something, or are you assuming that the system is not closed?

Thanks

Yes, closed system is better but tethering climbers together only sounds good on paper.

The debate is endless, but everyone just needs to rap like a normal person, so it’s always the same and hard to make a mistake. All of these rappelling shenanigans have major drawbacks and it only takes one mistake to die.

Spinsser H wrote:

Can you please clarify?

My understanding is that if you have a proper simul rap setup (closed system, both climbers tethered together) then you should not have this issue. Am I misunderstanding something, or are you assuming that the system is not closed?

Thanks

No need to join yourselves as long as it's a clean rap. Just tie knots and if you aren't at the center the partner with the longer end just lowers the other partner at the anchor. 

I wouldn't do this with sketchy raps with lots of choss/around corners/through bushes. 

Just like anything in climbing if you use your brain and think things through you'll be fine. People hate on simul rapping but in most cases it's just as easy as normal rapping and helps with stuck ropes vs biner block.

Connor Dobson wrote:

No need to join yourselves as long as it's a clean rap. Just tie knots and if you aren't at the center the partner with the longer end just lowers the other partner at the anchor. 

I wouldn't do this with sketchy raps with lots of choss/around corners/through bushes. 

Just like anything in climbing if you use your brain and think things through you'll be fine. People hate on simul rapping but in most cases it's just as easy as normal rapping and helps with stuck ropes vs biner block.

I actually think chossy climbs could be good candidates for simul rapping, because you minimize the time with one person below the other, in the path of falling rocks 

I've had a scare simul rapping where my partner weighed significantly less than me. I started pulling her up and I started falling down. Luckily it was a short rap - maybe 20 feet. I think connecting with a sling or something is a good idea, and stopper knots of course.