Rappelling wit a Grigri

My friends tell me that rappelling with a grigri on a butterfly knot on a multi pitch route is unsafe.   It almost seems like a hands free (obviously I don't go hands free) way of doing it.  My friends tell me I have no business bringing a grigri on a multi pitch as it is a sport climbing thing.  I always bring an atc as backup.  I guess the ultimate question is am I creating bad habits and should I change how I do it or should I just continue doing what I am doing?  If I should change, what is the better way and why is my way bad?

Yer gonna die…

But his friends are going to die too, so.. ?

If I know I am rapping, I bring an ATC, and if I am multipitching, I always bring a gri-gri. Read into that what you will. An ATC will usually be more efficient for rappelling, but anyone who says a GriGri doesn’t belong on a multipitch either doesn’t know how to use one fully or is a weight weeny. It is all personal preference to a degree. You could argue that an atc is redundant if you know how to use an HMS properly and you could argue that an HMS is pointless if you are comfortable with hip belays and a Dülfersitz rap. Go with what you are comfortable with and make sure you are solid on that method.

Fwiw we are all gunna die someday

oskar blueswrote:

My friends tell me that rappelling with a grigri on a butterfly knot on a multi pitch route is unsafe.

Could be.  How are you rigging this?

Assuming you are using a locking carabiner (gate out from the rock) to attach the butterfly knot to the other strand, this method is not inherently less safe than an ATC rappel. This is the way I rappel most of the time these days. The real issue is this creates several extra spots to catch/tangle/jam when you pull the rope particularly on low angle terrain or highly featured areas with vegetation. 

A butterfly or clove for a carabiner block is perfectly safe. I myself prefer to rap double on my atc, over doing a block. Or my partner and I will simultaneously rap each on a gri gri.

Webfootwrote:

Could be.  How are you rigging this?

I'm using a locking carabiner with the gate attached to the butterfly knot out to avoid any cross loads. Correct?

If one person brings an ATC, you can pre-rig the ATC for a double-strand rappel. That fixes the two brake strands and you can rappel one strand on a grigri. Once the first partner is at the next anchor, the pre-rigged partner rappels as usual with the ATC. No carabiner or knot block needed, and no simul-rappelling needed either. In a team of three, a person can be rappelling on each brake strand at the same time, speeding things up substantially 

oskar blueswrote:

My friends tell me that rappelling with a grigri on a butterfly knot on a multi pitch route is unsafe.  

It's as unsafe as the rest of climbing.

I own multiple versions of belay plates, tube style devices, a GriGri and a CT Alpine UP. I know how to use all of them. I've tried rapping with a GriGri multiple times. I just don't like it.

oskar blueswrote:

My friends tell me that rappelling with a grigri on a butterfly knot on a multi pitch route is unsafe. 

Incorrect, if it's done the right way.  However, as has been mentioned, it opens the door for complications when you pull the rope.  So, they're maybe partially correct, but to say it's flat out unsafe is kind of BS.

  It almost seems like a hands free (obviously I don't go hands free) way of doing it. 

So?  So is rapping with an ATC with a backup.  

 My friends tell me I have no business bringing a grigri on a multi pitch as it is a sport climbing thing.

"No business" makes your friends sound like chodes.  Sport climbers rap (and jug) on reepschnur setups (biner blocks) all the time.  

  I always bring an atc as backup. 

So, ask yourself this question:  Why carry the extra weight?  Do you just love the grigri that much?  Sounds like you're getting shit from judgmental know-it-all friends and you could have skipped the drama by just using an ATC.  Carabiners are the backup.  Two belay devices, one that's heavy, for multipitch sounds like extra trouble for no real benefit.

 I guess the ultimate question is am I creating bad habits and should I change how I do it or should I just continue doing what I am doing? 

Are you creating bad habits?  Idk, I guess if you get the rope stuck a couple times, that'll answer that question for you.  A rope can get stuck without a knot on a regular pull, but the knot can make it more prone to getting stuck.  But if you're not getting the rope stuck, if the pulls go fine and if your knot or block isn't pulling through the anchor, and you're getting down just fine, seems like your friends are just sticklers for the "right way"... whatever that means.  I've kind of learned over the years that the "right way" or "textbook method" or other such similar statements usually come from people that are control freaks.

 If I should change, what is the better way and why is my way bad?

The only reason you should change is if you have a reason to change.  Friends that are uptight about a non-problem (unless you're omitting the stories where the rope got stuck or other occurrences of fuckery based on using a Gri), isn't a good reason to change, unless they're super solid partners, will show up for last minute trip plans, and take on as much risk leading harder or R rated pitches, etc etc.  So, maybe a good reason is that there's no good reason you're adamant about using a GriGri. What inherent advantages does it give you over an ATC rap, considering you're bringing the damned thing with you anyway? It's hard to imagine they're so assertive about NOT using a Gri unless something has happened. Usually the people that are "my way or the highway" types that can only give ideological or "traditional" reasons why what you're doing is "bad", instead of giving actual safety/utilitarian reasons why it's "bad" don't know wtf they're talking about. YMMV.

Have you considered a device like the Giga Jul? Assisted braking belay, guide mode (assisted), assisted abseiling/rappel, and if wanted can use it like an ATC with no assisted functions. This is my primary device now. The safety it provides is great, and I leave the ATC and Grigri at home now.

Grigri basically comes with me any time I'm climbing with a partner (and using an appropriate diameter single rope). If I'm with a partner, I try to get them to bring a GriGri too. If it is a multiple rap descent, it's nice to have one tuber or ovo for the second person rapping. The potential for stuck ropes from a blocked rap just outweighs the tiny inconvenience of bringing a third belay device for the team.

I love blocked raps, self lowers, Escaper raps, etc. Learn all the tricks. But if you know for sure that you will do a bunch of raps, don't count on the tricks.

Also, I wouldn't climb with someone who says grigris don't belong on multi pitch routes. They are either an old timer who quit learning anything new decades ago and are posing as a "mentor", or are a brand new climber just repeating something they read in an old issue of Climbing. Either way, dangerous as a partner and big red flag for anything else they might have to say.

Besides the possibility of knots getting stuck, rapping with a grigri requires both hands which is often inconvenient (some examples in mountainproject.com/forum/t…)

Matt Zwrote:

If one person brings an ATC, you can pre-rig the ATC for a double-strand rappel. That fixes the two brake strands and you can rappel one strand on a grigri. Once the first partner is at the next anchor, the pre-rigged partner rappels as usual with the ATC. No carabiner or knot block needed, and no simul-rappelling needed either. In a team of three, a person can be rappelling on each brake strand at the same time, speeding things up substantially 

This is how my partner and I have started doing it. It's quite efficient, highly recommend everyone give this a try.

Matt Zwrote:

If one person brings an ATC, you can pre-rig the ATC for a double-strand rappel. That fixes the two brake strands and you can rappel one strand on a grigri. Once the first partner is at the next anchor, the pre-rigged partner rappels as usual with the ATC. No carabiner or knot block needed, and no simul-rappelling needed either. In a team of three, a person can be rappelling on each brake strand at the same time, speeding things up substantially 

Another advantage of this is that the first person is in hands free mode with the grigri and can deal with any tangles, and then the second person knows where the anchor is and doesn't have any tangles to deal with (and the first person can give them a fireman's if they want it) so there is no need to futz with autoblock setups that seem to take people yonks to set up. 

I never understood the hate for brining grigris on a multipitch. If you are setting up an arc in guide mode, the extra weight of the second locker makes it mostly a wash in terms of mass. It's a lot more secure, more versatile and honestly feeds better when belaying from above. 

I mean look at people free climbing hard routes, they are mostly using grigris.

Matt Zwrote:

If one person brings an ATC, you can pre-rig the ATC for a double-strand rappel. That fixes the two brake strands and you can rappel one strand on a grigri. Once the first partner is at the next anchor, the pre-rigged partner rappels as usual with the ATC. No carabiner or knot block needed, and no simul-rappelling needed either. In a team of three, a person can be rappelling on each brake strand at the same time, speeding things up substantially 

Never tried this, does the pre rigged atc need minding at all? Does it suck up against the chains? It just doesn’t sound intuitive to me at all. 

Drederekwrote:

Never tried this, does the pre rigged atc need minding at all? Does it suck up against the chains? It just doesn’t sound intuitive to me at all. 

Doesn't really need minding. I keep my hand on the brake ends of the rope, but I don't think this is strictly necessary. It feels like the weight of your partner on one strand would keep everything in place, but obviously better safe than sorry. You don't get pulled into the anchor, I'm not sure why that would happen. You do have to be somewhat aware of where the rope is running because you will get pulled inline between the anchor and the rappeller, but even when i haven't been super aware of this and have wound up with the rope pulling on me awkwardly it's like 60 seconds of mild discomfort, so no big deal.

The only downside to rapping with a Grigri is that it gets worn out a lot quicker. Otherwise, it's a lot safer, so long as your biner block doesn't get hung up one anything. The Grivel HMS Twin Gate carabiners are great for not getting hung up on features. I've used that one almost every Biner block I've done and have never had it stuck for long. 

I’ve never cared if my partners bring a grigri on multi pitch, but I don’t bring one. If you’re forcing the team to use a method that increases the odds of a problem happening, I think it’s fair that you take on all responsibility (e.g. financial loss, soloing/re-leading/ascending stuck rope) if a problem does occur.