Communicating with out-of-sight partner

Andy Eiterwrote:

What is a good way(s) to let your second know about fixed pro when you’re out of earshot without walkies?

Carry one or two alpine draws with a different color. I have two green slings. I tell my partner (before starting a climb), if you see those, it is fixed gear or they sit at the very end of a pitch (where we can hear and see each other anyway).

Dan D:

I don't really like using radios.  I don't like the various noises, and it is usually easier to speak to a partner without fumbling for something electronic.  My view of "the tool I brought," is that it is for the purpose of communicating when other methods are not readily available.

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

That’s not my point. My point is I take umbrage with the way the person I was quoting said “the only answer” when clearly radios are not the only option.

What is the alternative? The only things I have seen discussed is having a good verbal communication system(which will inevitably fail due to weather, climbing around a corner, etc.), and then pulling up the rope quickly to communicate "off belay" and then 30 seconds to 1 minute later assuming you are on belay without getting any sort of indication. Walkie talkies are cheap and robust enough that it is bordering on being irresponsible to not use them. 

acrophobewrote:

Dan D:

I don't really like using radios.  I don't like the various noises, and it is usually easier to speak to a partner without fumbling for something electronic. 

If it were easier to speak to your partner you wouldn't need the radio.  The problem is when you can't speak to your partner.  I used rope tug signals for 35 years with varying degrees of success and other methods.  Radios are simply better in all respects.  If you don't like the "various noises" turn down the volume and select a private channel, problem solved.   I maybe use radios once every two or three years because most days you just don't need them and even when carrying them I'll just yell to my partner but when the wind is howling and there is just no way you can hear each other radios are a game changer and a MAJOR time saver instead of picking around with rope tugs.

An email or fax may be the best. Just dial in on that Rocky LAN line and bam! You’re on belay in the early 2000’s baby!

Patrick Voosenwrote:

What is the alternative?

Why do you guys keep saying this as if people haven’t been successfully multi pitch climbing without radios (and continue to do so) forever? You can climb with radios, that’s fine.. but to pretend like that’s the only way is ridiculous. 

H Luewrote:

Why do you guys keep saying this as if people haven’t been successfully multi pitch climbing without radios (and continue to do so) forever? You can climb with radios, that’s fine.. but to pretend like that’s the only way is ridiculous. 

I feel like I am taking crazy pills.

OP: Hey I have this problem, any tips?

Climber from 2022: You should look into radios, they solve that problem with few, if any, drawbacks.

Luddite who uses mountain project: Radios are stupid, you should just continue living with your problems as our ancestors have done for thousands of years.

In 3 pages of discussion no one has offered any good advice. Yes, you can mostly communicate when the leader is off belay, and the follower goes on belay, but what do you propose if either party gets injured?

Patrick Voosenwrote:

I feel like I am taking crazy pills.

OP: Hey I have this problem, any tips?

Climber from 2022: You should look into radios, they solve that problem with few, if any, drawbacks.

Luddite who uses mountain project: Radios are stupid, you should just continue living with your problems as our ancestors have done for thousands of years.

In 3 pages of discussion no one has offered any good advice. Yes, you can mostly communicate when the leader is off belay, and the follower goes on belay, but what do you propose if either party gets injured?

Actually it's going more like..

OP: Hey I have this problem, any tips?

Climber from 2022: You should look into radios, they solve that problem with few, if any, drawbacks.

God's gift to rock climbing: RADIOS ARE LITERALLY THE ONLY ANSWER!

Other climber from 2022: Actually if you have a competent partner you can cli-

Mountain Project Savant: YEAH LITERALLY ANYONE WHO DOESN'T USE A RADIO IN 2022 IS AN IDIOT

God's gift to rock climbing: YEAH HOW ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO CLIMB WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE

Other climber from 2022: People have been climbing without radios and still climb without radios.. you can use them if you like but they're not essential.

Mountain Project Savant: Look at this stupid neanderthal who is stuck in the past and refuses to use MY EXPERT METHOD WHICH IS THE ONLY WAY

Alright, I'm done here. Heading to Squamish for a week. Pray for me, we won't have radios!

"Shut up and climb."

               -Tradiban

Tradibanwrote:

"Shut up and climb."

               -Tradiban

--Michael Scott 

H Luewrote:

Actually it's going more like..

OP: Hey I have this problem, any tips?

Climber from 2022: You should look into radios, they solve that problem with few, if any, drawbacks.

God's gift to rock climbing: RADIOS ARE LITERALLY THE ONLY ANSWER!

Other climber from 2022: Actually if you have a competent partner you can cli-

Mountain Project Savant: YEAH LITERALLY ANYONE WHO DOESN'T USE A RADIO IN 2022 IS AN IDIOT

God's gift to rock climbing: YEAH HOW ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO CLIMB WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE

Other climber from 2022: People have been climbing without radios and still climb without radios.. you can use them if you like but they're not essential.

Mountain Project Savant: Look at this stupid neanderthal who is stuck in the past and refuses to use MY EXPERT METHOD WHICH IS THE ONLY WAY

Alright, I'm done here. Heading to Squamish for a week. Pray for me, we won't have radios!

If we're putting words in all caps in people's mouths to make them look stupid, then perhaps yours should be "IF YOU USE A RADIO YOU'RE INCOMPETENT".

Nobody is saying it's impossible to climb things without a radio. But there's literally no amount of competence that allows you to speak through rocks. There are situations which come up where a radio is the only way to talk, and things need to be communicated which can't be communicated with rope tugs.

And sure, people climbed multipitch before radios. And sometimes, they couldn't communicate.

People don't think you're idiot because you don't think radios are absolutely necessary in every situation--I agree that they aren't always necessary. People think you're an idiot because you can't see the obvious utility, and decided to talk down to people who can see it.

And coming up later in this evening’s headlines, local man shakes fists at radio tower.

Andy Eiterwrote:

What is a good way(s) to let your second know about fixed pro when you’re out of earshot without walkies?

Is fixed gear really that difficult to spot?

• Stuck AF
• Often rusty or beat to shit
• Might be different brand/type than the leader's rack
• Stuck AF
• Doesn't have a racking carabiner on it
• Doesn't have the leaders tape/paint/whatever marker on it
• Stuck AF

Also, what's the scenario where there is fixed gear, and you can't communicate with the belayer when you get to it, and you also can't communicate with the follower when they get to it?  Like, it's exactly 30m from the belay on a 60m pitch and it's around a corner and under a roof?  And none of the checklist items apply?

And, if you can't communicate with your follower, what happens?  They try to get the gear out for a couple minutes and then give up?  No big deal, really, right?

I don't use a radio and I don't think they are necessary, but if you like them, that's fine too.  It does seem like some of these scenarios where a radio is "helpful" are a bit contrived, though.  I'm sure such scenarios happen, but I think they're less common than this thread indicates.

Kyle Tarrywrote:

Is fixed gear really that difficult to spot?

• Stuck AF
• Often rusty or beat to shit
• Might be different brand/type than the leader's rack
• Stuck AF
• Doesn't have a racking carabiner on it
• Doesn't have the leaders tape/paint/whatever marker on it
• Stuck AF

Also, what's the scenario where there is fixed gear, and you can't communicate with the belayer when you get to it, and you also can't communicate with the follower when they get to it?  Like, it's exactly 30m from the belay on a 60m pitch and it's around a corner and under a roof?  And none of the checklist items apply?

And, if you can't communicate with your follower, what happens?  They try to get the gear out for a couple minutes and then give up?  No big deal, really, right?

I don't use a radio and I don't think they are necessary, but if you like them, that's fine too.  It does seem like some of these scenarios where a radio is "helpful" are a bit contrived, though.  I'm sure such scenarios happen, but I think they're less common than this thread indicates.

True, it hasn’t been an issue before, and your list probably covers most scenarios. And, sure, having a plan for the few remaining cases isn’t a big deal.

I have a bit of a hearing impairment and have had difficulty communicating with a partner less than half a rope length away.

For all you radio lovers out there. What is your favorite make and model radio for multi pitch? It seems to me rocky talkies are a front runner. 

Michael Abendwrote:

For all you radio lovers out there. What is your favorite make and model radio for multi pitch? It seems to me rocky talkies are a front runner. 

For me the biggest selling point for the rocky talkie is the battery.  There aren't many walkie talkies that offer rechargeable lithium-ion batteries, and those that do are similarly priced. I personally find AA and AAA batteries wasteful and a PITA, and the cold weather performance and standby discharge of Ni-MH don't make sense for outdoor use to me. The second biggest selling point is the attachment method. Rocky talkies have a carabiner and lanyard built in. Other walkie talkies usually have a belt clip or nothing. You could probably rig up something secure with epoxy and drill, but it is nice to have something that works out of the box. 

In doing some research, I discovered that rocky talkies are a rebranded/modified version of the zastone mini 9 walkie talkie, I can't find it for sale anywhere, but it looks like it was as cheap as $37 on wish at one point, but you wouldn't get the case, leash, carabiner, ip56 rating, and usb-c charging(zastone used micro-usb), probably close to a $50 value imo. 

Also worth noting, it seems like there is always an active 10% discount code for rocky talkies and they do occasional discounts higher than that 20-25%, you definitely shouldn't pay full price for them.

I usually wait a little bit once the rope is pulled up and start climbing. But wasn’t there an accident report because the leader ran out of gear because he missed two belay ledges and they got into serious trouble?  I assume I am not simulclimbing unless we discuss it ahead of time, and that accident report really freaked me out. Thoughts on that?  

I assume that I am simo climbing until the rope settles into a definite belay feel.  Its just like fishing. you need to be able to tell whats on the end of your line without being able to see it.   Leader makes belay. pulls up all the rope and immediately puts follower on belay. When leader is ready to bring up the follower the leader pulls like heck and keeps a very tight guides belay encouraging follower to climb faster.  Follower belays until all the rope is gone.  when the rope starts pulling up like crazy follower  breaks down anchor and starts following the pitch. follower climbs as though simo climbing until its certain that they are not simo climbing. 

clee 03mwrote:

I usually wait a little bit once the rope is pulled up and start climbing. But wasn’t there an accident report because the leader ran out of gear because he missed two belay ledges and they got into serious trouble?  I assume I am not simulclimbing unless we discuss it ahead of time, and that accident report really freaked me out. Thoughts on that?  

I’m not sure how walkie-talkies would prevent incompetent lead climbing. If the leader needs you to simuclimb, nothing changes. If the leader starts downclimbing it will be fairly obvious by the huge loop of slack forming. I’ve used walkie-talkies before and since given up on them. I don’t mind other people using them, I just don’t find them useful enough to bring them.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I assume that I am simo climbing until the rope settles into a definite belay feel.  Its just like fishing. you need to be able to tell whats on the end of your line without being able to see it.   Leader makes belay. pulls up all the rope and immediately puts follower on belay. When leader is ready to bring up the follower the leader pulls like heck and keeps a very tight guides belay encouraging follower to climb faster.  Follower belays until all the rope is gone.  when the rope starts pulling up like crazy follower  breaks down anchor and starts following the pitch. follower climbs as though simo climbing until its certain that they are not simo climbing. 

This is fine for vertical pitches without roofs but a nightmare for the second if there are diagonal or traversing sections or if the rope runs over a roof. I think there are ways of handling the rope that convey all the needed info that don't involve mercilessly yarding on the second all the time.