What is "World Class"?

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

The question was, "What is "World Class."" I personally don't think world class exists. I think that is a fair answer. I think it is mostly a posturing move. Can you use the term, "world class," without sounding like a total tool? 

If someone says, "x beer is world class," I cringe. If someone says,  "JT is a world class tennis player," I cringe.

Sounds like someone being touchy about a local choss pile to me.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I mean I suppose that’s a fair answer. Though, I’m not sure why you are participating in a discussion about what is world class when you don’t believe it exists. That’s like flat-earther trying to be in a discussion about horizons or eclipses…but even less logical.

I think it is about the same amount of logicalness.

Anyways, back to the topic….kinda. So you legitimately think that when someone calls the absolute best crags in the world “world class” they sound like a tool? What/how do you describe the undeniable best crags in the world? 

They are fun. I had a good time. Or I describe the actual rock climbing characteristics. I was in the lower gorge at smith once, and this guy was telling his friend they would like the world class cracks of Yosemite so much better. Just because something is world class, does not mean you will enjoy it. Try it sure. 

When I was in Canadian Wine country at a vineyard, this lady brought me their world class red. It was fine. I hate red wine though. I enjoyed their best in providence Riesling much more.

I’m still waiting for an explanation/reason as to how dads in Boise and the RRG pertain to this thread  

Because every time someone starts a thread with stipulations, people totally ignore the practical stipulations. Four people will say go to the red, when the red is an extremely unpractical journey for the poster. People are just trying to show they are "world class" climbers because they went to some "world class" crag rather than give insightful advice. So the term "world class" is mostly used for posturing. I say all this as someone who loves the red.

What would make an individual route world class, rather than a crag or area?

Eldorado Canyon. . . if it hasn't already been mentioned.

Santee exactly one day per year

T Dwrote:

What would make an individual route world class, rather than a crag or area?

Although it’s ice climbing, Polar Circus is world class. There’s nothing really close to it, Weeping Wall is a few minutes drive. It splits an entire mountain in half. So sick. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I think it is about the same amount of logicalness.

So you agree how idiotic it is to be trying to contribute to this forum as someone who does not believe anything can be "world-class"?

They are fun. I had a good time. Or I describe the actual rock climbing characteristics. 

So do you just quantify a routes quality in a binary sense as either "fun" or "not fun"? So the best route/crag in the world is just "fun"? it can't be "classic", "world class" or even 5 stars (we all know where you stand on rating vs. ranking after all).

 I was in the lower gorge at smith once, and this guy was telling his friend they would like the world class cracks of Yosemite so much better. Just because something is world class, does not mean you will enjoy it. Try it sure. 

I don't necessarily disagree, however I see no relevance to this conversation. Just because someone does not enjoy the cracks in Yosemite or Indian Creek does not mean they are not some of the best on the planet....thus, by definition, world class. Your or my individual opinion has very little impact on if something is actually good or not overall. It is the collective opinions of climbers that determine if something is world class. Personally I hate Smith rock, but I can totally understand why other's enjoy it. Someone can not enjoy something that is world class, but that does not deter from the quality of the route/crag in my opinion. Maybe this is your reasoning for why you don't believe in world class routes and you're just doing a poor job conveying that to me, but to me that's a very narrow-minded take if that's the case. 

Because every time someone starts a thread with stipulations, people totally ignore the practical stipulations. 

What stipulations did the OP make? They literally asked "how do you define world class, and what areas do you think deserve this title?" to which you replied: they do not exist. If anything the OP has zero stipulations, which may be why so many people call so many average crags "world class".

For people will say go to the red, when the red is an extremely unpractical journey for the poster. People are just trying to show they are "world class" climbers because they went to some "world class" crag rather than give insightful advice. So the term "world class" is mostly used for posturing. I say all this as someone who loves the red.

I think it speaks volumes about the quality of a place like the RRG (which you claim is an unpractical journey yet is less than 2 hours from an international airport and has a plethora of housing options within minutes of climbing) or actual places that are "unpractical" like Kalmynos, Protero, Grampians, or Rocklands. One might say that the fact that people come from all over the world to go to these places make them world class...

T Dwrote:

What would make an individual route world class, rather than a crag or area?

If the route would be one of the best routes at ANY crag it become world class to me. For example, some crags/areas just aren't as good as others, just because it is the best route at that crag/area doesn't mean it would be the best, or even considered great, at another area. People on this thread seem to be forgetting that the term "world-class" inherently means that it must be compared/measured on a scale that includes more than just the US.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

So you agree how idiotic it is to be trying to contribute to this forum as someone who does not believe anything can be "world-class"?

No, I am just saying that there can be counter points presented in an argument. Part of the issue with flat earthers is that they are humored so little that there is a total vacuum of discussion.

So do you just quantify a routes quality in a binary sense as either "fun" or "not fun"? So the best route/crag in the world is just "fun"? it can't be "classic", "world class" or even 5 stars (we all know where you stand on rating vs. ranking after all).

I think about them all relative to each other. Which crag did I have a better experience at. To know what is world class, that means that you have climbed many many "world class" destinations (I would say you need to do the best trad climbs in 20 other countries and 25 states) and choss piles. Most people do not have that breadth of experience, people tend to go to the crags they like and often do not travel and try that many crags. For example take the average CA trad climber, many just go to Yosemite. They do not necessarily travel to other other places, let alone internationally year after year. These climbers could be missing out on even better granite in China or the Granite cliffs deep in north western Canada. JCM seems to be by far the best travelled user in the forum and he is asking the question. 

I don't necessarily disagree, however I see no relevance to this conversation. Just because someone does not enjoy the cracks in Yosemite or Indian Creek does not mean they are not some of the best on the planet....thus, by definition, world class. Your or my individual opinion has very little impact on if something is actually good or not overall. It is the collective opinions of climbers that determine if something is world class. Personally I hate Smith rock, but I can totally understand why other's enjoy it. Someone can not enjoy something that is world class, but that does not deter from the quality of the route/crag in my opinion. Maybe this is your reasoning for why you don't believe in world class routes and you're just doing a poor job conveying that to me, but to me that's a very narrow-minded take if that's the case. 

What stipulations did the OP make? They literally asked "how do you define world class, and what areas do you think deserve this title?" to which you replied: they do not exist. If anything the OP has zero stipulations, which may be why so many people call so many average crags "world class".

Yeah but I was just speaking in hypotheticals. 

I think it speaks volumes about the quality of a place like the RRG (which you claim is an unpractical journey yet is less than 2 hours from an international airport and has a plethora of housing options within minutes of climbing) or actual places that are "unpractical" like Kalmynos, Protero, Grampians, or Rocklands. One might say that the fact that people come from all over the world to go to these places make them world class...

Right now the journey from Boise to Lexington 7.5 hours of air travel plus 2 hours to get from the airport to the red. So you are losing pretty much an entire day to travel. In my hypothetical, is a climbing trip worth it if you spend 2 of your 4 days travelling? There is probably some place where its a 4 hour drive to Utah to climb some jug hual, so you would get 3-4 days of climbing.

The whole conversation about what is world class is totally biased by the pre-conceived notion that it is world class. Most rationale people realize they can only make statements about crags they have climbed at. By saying it is world class, that implies you have a good amount of knowledge about many many climbs existing all over the world; simply most users do not have the knowledge base. Most users do not even have state or area level knowledge. When you imply something is world class, that implies you have extensive travel experience which as discussed above, most users do not therefore it is just posturing to state a crag is world class.

you certainly find that in the Tetons. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote: Right now the journey from Boise to Lexington 7.5 hours of air travel plus 2 hours to get from the airport to the red. So you are losing pretty much an entire day to travel. In my hypothetical, is a climbing trip worth it if you spend 2 of your 4 days travelling?

First off, a flight from Boise to Lex should not take 7.5 hours. That’s a ~5 hr flight and it takes about an hour to get to the Red from Lex, but I’ll succumb that it is close to a full day of travel to get from Boise to Lex. Regardless, this has nothing to do with the quality of a route or crag, so what does this have to do with a route or area being world class? Especially with a place as accessible as the Red.

I can see using proximity as an argument for or against an area to a reasonable extent. For example, I can see how Vinson Massif’s location would deter from its over all quality as its accessibility is extremely difficult for everyone. However, claiming the RRG is not world class because it would take someone from Boise/Seattle/San Fran a day to get to is hilarious.

 There is probably some place where its a 4 hour drive to Utah to climb some jug hual, so you would get 3-4 days of climbing.

And if there was a place remotely as extensive in quality and quantity as the Red somewhere in Utah I’m sure we would be mentioning that as a world class destination as well…

The whole conversation about what is world class is totally biased by the pre-conceived notion that it is world class. Most rationale people realize they can only make statements about crags they have climbed at. By saying it is world class, that implies you have a good amount of knowledge about many many climbs existing all over the world; simply most users do not have the knowledge base. Most users do not even have state or area level knowledge.

So if I haven’t climbed any roped climbs in Yosemite that means I can’t consider it world class then? You would be in the vast minority trying to argue against me if I were to say that. I understand your point when it comes to certain places like Index, HCR, or Shelf but look man, just cause you only have climbed in the PNW and taken a week long trip to the Red here and there doesn’t mean the rest of us haven’t climbed at enough areas or have enough common sense to make the distinction between whether or not an area/route is world class or not   

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

First off, a flight from Boise to Lex should not take 7.5 hours. That’s a ~5 hr flight and it takes about an hour to get to the Red from Lex, but I’ll succumb that it is close to a full day of travel to get from Boise to Lex. Regardless, this has nothing to do with the quality of a route or crag, so what does this have to do with a route or area being world class? Especially with a place as accessible as the Red.

I can see using proximity as an argument for or against an area to a reasonable extent. For example, I can see how Vinson Massif’s location would deter from its over all quality as its accessibility is extremely difficult for everyone. However, claiming the RRG is not world class because it would take someone from Boise/Seattle/San Fran a day to get to is hilarious.

And if there was a place remotely as extensive in quality and quantity as the Red somewhere in Utah I’m sure we would be mentioning that as a world class destination as well…

I am not saying the red is or is not world class. I am simply saying going to the Red does not make you an expert on what should or should not be world class. 

So if I haven’t climbed any roped climbs in Yosemite that means I can’t consider it world class then? You would be in the vast minority trying to argue against me if I were to say that. I understand your point when it comes to certain places like Index, HCR, or Shelf but look man, just cause you only have climbed in the PNW and taken a week long trip to the Red here and there doesn’t mean the rest of us haven’t climbed at enough areas or have enough common sense to make the distinction between whether or not an area/route is world class or not   

Yes you shouldn't make statements about climbing areas you haven't experienced. The flaming comes out! I have climbed in 24 states! How many states and countries have you climbed in? What statements can you make about climbing in Africa/Asia/South America overall? If you are going to be the gate keeper on what is world class, how many places do you need to climb? What is your criteria?

The only thing you or I know about a climbing areas quality is the relative quality to another area we have climbed in. Saying you know what is world class implies you have traveled the world for climbing, most have not. Saying the red is better than some local jug haul is fair. Saying the red is the best jug hual place in the world, without having climbed in other famous jug hual areas does not mean jack. I think many users could contend the Red is the best jug haul place in America but people say the world to sound more experienced than they actually are.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I am not saying the red is or is not world class. I am simply saying going to the Red does not make you an expert on what should or should not be world class. 

Yes you shouldn't make statements about climbing areas you haven't experienced. The flaming comes out! I have climbed in 24 states! How many states and countries have you climbed in? What statements can you make about climbing in Africa/Asia/South America overall? If you are going to be the gate keeper on what is world class, how many places do you need to climb? What is your criteria?

The only thing you or I know about a climbing areas quality is the relative quality to another area we have climbed in. Saying you know what is world class implies you have traveled the world for climbing, most have not. Saying the red is better than some local jug haul is fair. Saying the red is the best jug hual place in the world, without having climbed in other famous jug hual areas does not mean jack. I think many users could contend the Red is the best jug haul place in America but people say the world to sound more experienced than they actually are.

I now honestly think that you could make masturbation complicated.

Marc801 Cwrote:

I now honestly think that you could make masturbation complicated.

Well when I have an audience, I have to make it interesting somehow. If I ever go into the adult film business I will get you and JT first cuts.

Marc801 Cwrote:

I now honestly think that you could make masturbation complicated.

Certainly the mental masturbation going on here is complicated

It's clear that we need to stack the court of judges with those approved by the litmus testers per the sacred scrolls of the narnia society.

World class can have several different definitions depending on the user group.   One user group is  there because its so much fun and so esthetic.  another group is there purely for the difficulty and  yet another group may be there for the prestigious tick list.  there will be crossovers who are there for all of the above or some other reason but the defining criteria is that folks from all over the world want to climb it.   You can also have world class that is completely off the radar.  That place where if they knew how good it was they would come...   Some world class destinations may have more reputation than quality but they are on the cool kids tick list so they qualify. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

 Most users do not even have state or area level knowledge. When you imply something is world class, that implies you have extensive travel experience which as discussed above, most users do not therefore it is just posturing to state a crag is world class.

I have climbed in:
Canada - British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, Quebec;
United Sates - Washington, California, Nevada, Texas, Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, South Dakota, Arizona, New York, Kentucky, New Hampshire
Europe: England, Scotland, Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland
Other countries: Mexico, South Africa, India

I feel I have a reasonably broad experience for, at least, what makes for a world-class moderate crag.

I wouldn't read so much into the words people use. People saying a climbing area is "world class" just means they like it.

There are some aspects of people's willingness to travel to an area which have nothing to do with the quality of the climbing. The Chattanooga area, for example, has climbing every bit as good as The Red or The New, but it's more spread out in different areas which makes it difficult for an outsider to make a trip of it. The climbing is also split more between sport, trad, and bouldering, which means it's less likely to get "world class" status in any one of those areas (okay, maybe Chatt is kind of a world-class bouldering area).

One might say something similar about other diverse and spread-out areas like the Adirondacks.

David Gibbswrote:

I have climbed in:
Canada - British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, Quebec;
United Sates - Washington, California, Nevada, Texas, Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, South Dakota, Arizona, New York, Kentucky, New Hampshire
Europe: England, Scotland, Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland
Other countries: Mexico, South Africa, India

I feel I have a reasonably broad experience for, at least, what makes for a world-class moderate crag.

Except the second someone disagrees with you on MP they will leverage your list against you and say you don't know "world class" climbing. People constantly tell me I haven't travelled enough and I have climbed in 20+ states. 

I think in most cases "world class" is used as a form of projection.