What is "World Class"?

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I had this exact thought!

And it only took you 8 years!

"World Class" -- worth travelling long international or intercontinental for.  A good sign of this is that it does draw an international, and even intercontinental crew of climbers.

Some places I'd nominate:Yosemite, Squamish, and El Potrero Chico.  Perhaps the Haut Val Durance, France.  Costa Blanca, Spain?

Then, the question becomes... how wide an area?  Can one just say, "The Swiss Alps" -- or is that too broad a brush?

I’ve traveled in many countries and I’ve asked foreign climbers what crags they want to visit in the US. They all say the same thing: Indian Creek, Red River Gorge, and Yosemite. So, if the criteria for work class is “worth traveling around the world”, then these are top of the list for many climbers wanting to do just that.

Of course their answers are biased and probably heavily weighted by what they see in the mags and on social media.

Black Velvet wall is world class. It’s a massive, epic wall that people travel from around the world to climb. Almost every route on it is great. It’s not necessarily the best in the world (that’s subjective), but it’s hard to have a better climbing experience than a good day out on black velvet wall (if you’re lucky enough to have the place to yourself and it isn’t too loud at least). It’s a world class experience to climb BV wall

Mike Climberson wrote:

Black Velvet wall is world class. It’s a massive, epic wall that people travel from around the world to climb. Almost every route on it is great. It’s not necessarily the best in the world (that’s subjective), but it’s hard to have a better climbing experience than a good day out on black velvet wall (if you’re lucky enough to have the place to yourself and it isn’t too loud at least). It’s a world class experience to climb BV wall

Not as good as the Panty Wall, but it's pretty good.

"World Class" is a marketing ploy. 

Also East Buttress of Mt Whitney. It’s a huge route with mostly bomber rock on one of the biggest mountains in the country. Completely epic, and you’re not going to find much better views. You can’t compare Whitney to a local choss pile 

Jim Lawyer wrote:

I’ve traveled in many countries and I’ve asked foreign climbers what crags they want to visit in the US. They all say the same thing: Indian Creek, Red River Gorge, and Yosemite. So, if the criteria for work class is “worth traveling around the world”, then these are top of the list for many climbers wanting to do just that.

Of course their answers are biased and probably heavily weighted by what they see in the mags and on social media.

It’s a good thing they don’t say ADK! Although I’m sure you’ve met some international people there (for sure Canadians but that might be cheating) 

JCM wrote: Another good test if you are trying to determine whether a local area is world class is to ask "would I drive past X to climb at Y?" with X being a true world class destination. Would I drive past Ceuse to climb at Mount Charleston? Would I drive past Yosemite to climb at Little Cottonwood Canyon? This is a potentially useful definition, but not perfect. Very succinct, but it does run into the issues with the times you may choose to drive past a world class area to go to somewhere arguably lower-tier, but with something slightly different Would I drive past Yosemite to go to LCC? No, I wouldn't; ergo LCC is not world class. Would I drive past Yosemite to go to Squamish? Yes, and I have done exactly that; I think that for 5.10-5.12 free climbs of 1-day length, as well as for bouldering and cragging, Squamish is the peer of Yosemite. The walls are smaller, but the rock quality is more consistently good and the cracks are often more straight-in; plus the hang is better. Ergo, Squamish is world class. Using this same method (and a general sense of "within the same genre"), I have one word with which to refute any claim that Eldo is world class: Arapiles. You do, however, have to stick to the "within the same genre" for the "drive past" rule to work. You may drive past Yosemite to go to Maple Canyon. This does not mean that Maple is world class, if just means that you had a hankering for steep jugs that Yosemite would not satisfy. Additionally, there is the "there is no accounting for taste" issue...

If you are into massive overhanging cave routes, then Pipedreams at Maple might qualify as world class.  That place is stunning.

csproul wrote: Places in the US that I've been that i'd call "world class", meaning that I'd be ok with flying half way around the globe to go there: Yosemite/Tuolumne Sierras Josh (marginally) Red Rocks NRG City of Rocks Wind River Maybe RMNP/Lumpy if it was a family vacation in Estes or something like that Maybe the Tetons if combined with other WYO locations I love NC climbing, but I wouldn't fly 8 hours just to climb there Same with the Gunks

I like this post because of the "maybe the Tetons".  I'd probably bump the Tetons out of this because they are surpassed by the French Alps.  So, then it comes down so some sort of qualification, like, "there's no telepherique, so that puts the Tetons in a different class." [it's not the Tetons, per se, just about how they make me think of better options in that class of climbing that are more worthwhile destinations]

For RMNP, I'd say the Diamond puts it in firm contention for "world class".

So, I'm thinking out loud here about particular rankings and such, but on the same page with you about "does this place warrant an international flight?" being a pretty good benchmark for "world class."

I guess what is the point of even designating a crag as world class. I feel like world class is often used more for posturing than giving good advice.

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Edit: To be clear I think Index can be world class but most peoples takes on Index are cringe. 

So presumably crags can only sometimes be world class? What makes it dependent? Weather? Crowds? Only certain routes are world class? Explain yourself!!!!!

I only really know Canadaland, but I’d say Squamish, the Bugs, and the Rockies are world class for different reasons. Rogers Pass is for skiing without a doubt.

In America, most people I know want to go to Indian Creek, the Alaska Range, and Yosemite. I’m sure there’s more world class places, but those three are the ones in everybody’s hit list. The High Sierra certainly have a lot of appeal, and I think most people here want to experience Jtree once, but those are the ones I think of. RRG and Smith Rocks for the more sport inclined climbers. 

If you go to an area and there are often people from other places around the world it is then world class. I agree with those that say the term is thrown around too much. For me the only areas to earn "world class" for me are RRG, Indian Creek, and Yosemite. I can't comment on anything in Alaska as I don't really do much alpine climbing and therefore have never been.

Artem B wrote: The Ghost Valley

Anyone know what this is? Is it https://www.summitpost.org/ghost-climbs/337501 ?? 

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

So presumably crags can only sometimes be world class? What makes it dependent? Weather? Crowds? Only certain routes are world class? Explain yourself!!!!!

I just really don’t believe in the term. I would say if you can come to index if your in seattle or can go to the crag on weekday mornings in summer. I would say if you lake deceptive movement with fingery moves and good gear/texture with exceptionally high average route quality or if you like granite in general.

I think people should recommend crags that make sense. Like if someone is a dad that lives in Boise and wants to climb overhanging jugs on a four day weekend the red is the worst recommendation.

People that obsess about world class climbing are the brewery obsessed yelp reviewers of rock climbing.

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I think people should recommend crags that make sense.

That's not what the OP, or myself asked. We asked, to an extent, what makes a crag world class and which crags warrant that title...to me it is based on if the quality is worth traveling across the world to go to, or if the quality of climbing is some of the best worldwide. It has nothing to do with it's proximity to any particular individual. Based on your response, you disagree?

 Like if someone is a dad that lives in Boise and wants to climb overhanging jugs on a four day weekend the red is the worst recommendation.

Why? This logic leads me to believe that because the RRG is far away from Boise it is not world class? That doesn't make sense to me. Elaborate. 

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

Elaborate. 

Please don’t encourage him.*

*joke   

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

That's not what the OP, or myself asked. We asked, to an extent, what makes a crag world class and which crags warrant that title...to me it is based on if the quality is worth traveling across the world to go to, or if the quality of climbing is some of the best worldwide. It has nothing to do with it's proximity to any particular individual. Based on your response, you disagree?

Why? This logic leads me to believe that because the RRG is far away from Boise it is not world class? That doesn't make sense to me. Elaborate. 

The question was, "What is "World Class."" I personally don't think world class exists. I think that is a fair answer. I think it is mostly a posturing move. Can you use the term, "world class," without sounding like a total tool? 

If someone says, "x beer is world class," I cringe. If someone says,  "JT is a world class tennis player," I cringe.

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

The question was, "What is "World Class."" I personally don't think world class exists. I think that is a fair answer. I think it is mostly a posturing move. Can you use the term, "world class," without sounding like a total tool? 

I mean I suppose that’s a fair answer. Though, I’m not sure why you are participating in a discussion about what is world class when you don’t believe it exists. That’s like flat-earther trying to be in a discussion about horizons or eclipses…but even less logical.

Anyways, back to the topic….kinda. So you legitimately think that when someone calls the absolute best crags in the world “world class” they sound like a tool? What/how do you describe the undeniable best crags in the world? 

If someone says, "x beer is world class," I cringe. If someone says,  "JT is a world class tennis player," I cringe.

Your posts are truly world class, Trevstar #cringe

I’m still waiting for an explanation/reason as to how dads in Boise and the RRG pertain to this thread