Who is allowed to be a developer?

Darryl Cramerwrote: EDIT:  The post this was responding to is now modified and below this one. Seriously?

I wouldn’t bother trying to keep up with the guy, I think he just whirls around in circles like that till he tires himself out.

"my friends describe me as a “trad-Chad,” meaning I’m all about the traditional ethics "

This guy is definitely horsesh|t. He calls himself "all about traditional ethics", but now wants to put up bolts now. How is this "traditional ethics"?

But, on a different note, since you proclaim yourself as a trad climber, please feel free to put up lines. Trad climbers are crappy climbers anyway, no one cares about 5.8s, 5.9s, and maybe on a rare occasion, a 5.10. No one cares about these softies.

Jake Fosterwrote:

"my friends describe me as a “trad-Chad,” meaning I’m all about the traditional ethics "

This guy is definitely horsesh|t. He calls himself "all about traditional ethics", but now wants to put up bolts now. How is this "traditional ethics"?

lol welcome to the shit show Captain Obvious. Thank you for participating in our case study.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Which areas of 38 are you upset about then? Generally you take most issue with exit 47, I assumed that is what you meant.

No idea why you think I am upset.  My first post merely stated that you seem to be a true believer in a model of climbing ethics that at least in Wa started at the Exits.  I was responding to this comment which I quoted:  Most the credit should be given to those who enable others to get an ascent.  I believe this model has very negative long-term impacts on climbing but I mention that only by reference to another thread.  

A FA is a simple concept and not related to climber traffic.  Developing crags for other climbers in general, for specific subsets of climbers or simply developing routes in a manner to maximize traffic cries out for management especially when it becomes the dominate ethic.  Its also a great justification for crappy behavior.

About a month ago I mentioned to a longtime partner that with the coming of the long days of summer we could make quick before or after work trips out to real rock.    His response was “OK but let’s NOT go to the Exits.”  He said that because I have made him go there too often - that’s how upsetting I find the Exits.  

Darryl Cramerwrote:

About a month ago I mentioned to a longtime partner that with the coming of the long days of summer we could make quick before or after work trips out to real rock.    His response was “OK but let’s NOT go to the Exits.”  He said that because I have made him go there too often - that’s how upsetting I find the Exits.  

The exits are the best! Running laps on Orgasmatron? What have you been climbing? Surprised we haven't seen you out there since there have been limited dry options

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

People are beggy choosers when it comes to routes. They want perfect hardware, perfect trail, perfect belay area, the perfect climbing experience without doing any work. It is nuts.

This. We, as a climbing community, have raised a bunch of princesses (no pun intended) over the last few decades.

This guy is definitely horsesh|t. He calls himself "all about traditional ethics", but now wants to put up bolts now. How is this "traditional ethics"?

It's quite traditional... from the ground up, bolting on lead. 

Jake Fosterwrote:

This guy is definitely horsesh|t. He calls himself "all about traditional ethics", but now wants to put up bolts now. How is this "traditional ethics"?

Because what we now call trad always included bolts. As Cherokee  pointed out, ground up, on lead (except when they weren't*).

*: examples, both from the Gunks:

Arrow - bolts placed on rappel, including the 3 replacement sets

Pas De Deux - protection pitons placed on rappel

Chris Hatzaiwrote:

From personal experience learning to develop routes on a finite resource, just know whatever you do do out there probably won't be judged by the masses until at least a few years have past. Prepare for any backlash from events that may have occurred years prior while "learning" to develop. 

hah. do do

Darryl Cramerwrote:

A FA is a simple concept and not related to climber traffic.  Developing crags for other climbers in general, for specific subsets of climbers or simply developing routes in a manner to maximize traffic cries out for management especially when it becomes the dominate ethic.  Its also a great justification for crappy behavior.

There is no winning. If you develop a crag solely for your own satisfaction people will cry about it being dangerous or bold or lazy. They will also claim you are causing access issues by not cleaning it enough.

If you clean it with traffic in mind there will then be more traffic. Thus also causing problems.

I would rather be the person cleaning so well people don’t get hurt. Most modern day new climbers get freaked out by the slightest lose hold and with high volumes of climbers at the base of every crag a large block ripping off is more than just a laugh these days.

Does anyone have a Patreon account for the Runout Podcast?  The most recent episode kind of relates to some of this discussion in that it’s about developing and keeping secret crags for yourself.   I’m too cheap to pay for it, curious what they have to say. 

Does choss ever become less chossy with "cleaning"? Pry a block off today, pry again tomorrow, etc etc. There is a basalt/craprock crag I know of  in the east that has 1'-5' layers that are peeling yearly. I guarantee some of those bolts ended up in layers that will peel within 10 years but hey, nobody ever said climbing was supposed to be safe like power walking or putt putt.

M Mwrote:

Does choss ever become less chossy with "cleaning"? Pry a block off today, pry again tomorrow, etc etc.

No. Look at Connecticut craprock as example 1.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

There is no winning. If you develop a crag solely for your own satisfaction people will cry about it being dangerous or bold or lazy. They will also claim you are causing access issues by not cleaning it enough.

If you clean it with traffic in mind there will then be more traffic. Thus also causing problems.

PP Lovr, you complain about developing a lot for someone who wants people to think you are a developer. 

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Does anyone have a Patreon account for the Runout Podcast?  The most recent episode kind of relates to some of this discussion in that it’s about developing and keeping secret crags for yourself.   I’m too cheap to pay for it, curious what they have to say. 

The only thing in climbing I value less than podcasts is Bisharat’s opinion on anything

Tal Mwrote:

The only thing in climbing I value less than podcasts is Bisharat’s opinion on anything

So how should we value your opinion?

Marc801 Cwrote:

So how should we value your opinion?

I wouldn't ask for anything too crazy - probably just etch my words into a few stone tablets and maybe write a book about how to best follow my teachings?

Go Back to Super Topowrote:

PP Lovr, you complain about developing a lot for someone who wants people to think you are a developer. 

Have you been on mp? It’s just complaints and a lack of reading comprehension. Where do I claim to be a developer?

But you can work on your trolling. I am complaining about people complaining that’s much easier to troll.

Curmudgeon Donwrote:

Simple enough question… who is allowed to develop any given climbing area?

I’m going on vacation next week, and I’m a sucker for virgin rock, and have an eye for spotting fixed lines. Is it “ok” for me to start developing? A little bit about me: my friends describe me as a “trad-Chad,” meaning I’m all about the traditional ethics and I know everything about anything. I’m going to a place with no specific guide book, and I’ll post on the local climbing Facebook page to ask for any willing partners who are also fans of virgin rock like myself. Is it acceptable for me to place a few bolts?

I'd start with a general "no" on the "is it OK for me to wander into an area and start placing bolts?" question of yours. Around here there was an area that had been climbed since the 1950's. BUT as it wasn't on MT Project and the hundreds who had climbed there previously had not put in fixed anchors at the top of cracks, it was assumed to be "virgin". Now it is on Mt Project and there are new "first ascents" being done, named and new bolts on top by new "developers".  I find it humorous and don't really care although I'm certain that leads I did in the 70s were done much earlier but are now, 50 years later, getting "first ascents". The place mosses over in the winter and has poison oak, so maybe the new love will help with that. (hopefully)

So my point is to ask around and be sure, there may already be a local cadre of folks there. If they are long gone it won't matter, but if they are currently climbing there and they walk up and see you bolting one of their long time faves', you might have an issue.