Who is allowed to be a developer?

climber patwrote:

I know routes I did in poudre canyon, cochise stronghold and NM, including 2 whole areas with dozens of routes each, 1980 and 1990 have been claimed by others as first ascents and developed long afterwards.   We did all the routes ground up without bolts now all those routes have bolts, some are sport routes with many bolts.  When I noticed this happening on mountain project I started making a joke that I need to put a bolt on a route to mark, as in a dog marking his territory, as mine.   Today I don't really care but it is likely true that someone else was there long before. The beauty of a purely trad routes, especially if not reported on mountain project or in guidebooks, is that subsequent climbers can have the 1st ascent experience.   Locally most new routes are marked as FNA (first known ascent) because is has become clear that most of the routes 5.11 and easier were done earlier (1970/1980s).

All well and good but you know “known” starts with a “k”? I mean, I get FKA is already an acronym, but….

No doubt many climbs have been done earlier. It is also interesting that the original style, specifically regarding the risks in protection some will take for the FA glory does not always match the final route equipping. 

Curmudgeon Donwrote:

Simple enough question… who is allowed to develop any given climbing area?

I’m going on vacation next week, and I’m a sucker for virgin rock, and have an eye for spotting fixed lines. Is it “ok” for me to start developing? A little bit about me: my friends describe me as a “trad-Chad,” meaning I’m all about the traditional ethics and I know everything about anything. I’m going to a place with no specific guide book, and I’ll post on the local climbing Facebook page to ask for any willing partners who are also fans of virgin rock like myself. Is it acceptable for me to place a few bolts?

Anybody is allowed to be a developer, even you. 

There's no formal system or real rules saying who "can" or "can't" and unfortunately that leads to some pretty bad developing. Until the authority with jurisdiction steps in climbers will just have to accept what they get.

Tal Mwrote:

Montoya and Pat - I appreciate your response but I was being sarcastic. It’s not difficult to know which routes have or have not been done before based off the style and difficulty of climbing, the quality of rock and amount of cleaning required. I don’t believe the amount of completely unprotected and undocumented 5.11/+ routes done in the 70s and 80s is in more than double digits nationally, despite the vocal, crusty narrative about it. Especially when these are 3 and 4 star climbs, fairly close to the road, that we’re supposedly FAd by the same people publishing and protecting their dogshit routes 30++++ minutes from a road. I’m sure you both have had routes you did retroclaimed as you mentioned but acting like it’s some sort of epidemic happening in America is laughable. 

I know someone who feels he was screwed over by a guidebook author in the early 1990s.  He only does trad 1st ascents, gets out once or twice a week year round putting up at least one and sometimes several routes each time out.   My off the cuff calculation is he has around 2000 unpublished 1st ascents, the vast majority without bolts; I have done dozens with him myself,  None of these routes are published anywhere except on his computer.  These routes are not done for anyone else, there is no building a trail, no cairns marking the way, no top rope previewing of the route and no cleaning of the route, so no one can tell just by looking at it if it has been climbed.   The approaches are anywhere from 45 minutes to 2 hours.  Often there is a couple of bolts on top which were used to get down.

A lot of capable climbers traveled in the 70s/80s and put up routes all over the place.  I know I traveled and I think I put up several 1st ascents.  Even at the time I know it was possible someone had climbed it before me.  I have never met a guide book author and there is no way they would know what I did while traveling through their areas.  At the time guide books to many areas did not exist, were hard to find, often out of print and rarely if ever updated.  The idea that there is a climbing community where everyone knows everyone else was never true.  

I really do not care if you find a crag and develop it even if it was done in the past by some crusty old dude.  I don't even care if you bolt it up as a sport climb(if legal).  Just realize that the most likely the climb was done long ago especially if it is 5.11 or easier.  

I know of a completely unprotected 5.11 climb in the front range done ground up.  The climber was depressed and probably suicidal at the time.  He climbed the route ground up and was unable to place protection or get a stance to pound in a bolt for 90 feet.  Finally he got to a ledge he could stand on.  He then pulled up a bolt kit and hammer to install a 1/4 inch bolt to come done from.   

That there is a crag 30 minutes from a road in the front range that has not been visited and climbed is laughable. 

Hey Pat - sorry to hear your friend has 2000 FAs that are all going to be retroclaimed. It seems you’ve proven my point though - you can think of 1 example of a an unprotected climb in the 5.11 range - and it still even has a bolt on it. I’m clearly not talking about trad lines here as there’s no requirement for lines protected (key word here, as I’ve consistently stated these climbs would be otherwise unprotected) by trad gear to have bolts.

But I’ll be sure to add a footnote that the crag of 100ft 5.11 slabs that you couldn’t even hook on was all FAd by some hardman back in the 80s whenever I share it.

climber patwrote:

Does it even matter though. If someone doesn't want to document a climb at all, go to any effort for others to know about it, it think it is a bit unreliable to claim something was climbed 30 years ago. It seems extremely petty for people to only care when someone else clams the line. I also think there is a lot of historical inaccuracy when it comes to this stuff. Maybe old timers have better memory than me, but I will see 3 year old pictures of me and I have no idea what climb I am even on. Pragmatically did you even believe every wild story your grandparents told you? 

Last night we rebolted a route, and the documented FA from the 90s does not even know if he did it (from his own mouth). 

While I am sure much of the rock in the front range has been climbed to an extent, it is pretty hard for me to imagine that the exact lines that get bolted align with the original ascent. In clear creek specifically, I imagine a lot of walls got climbed on gear but the gear route is pieces of three modern day sport routes. 

I personally don't even think we should care about the first person to climb it. Most the credit should be given to those who enable others to get an ascent. In this situation, I think the fairest thing is to give credit to both the modern day bolter and the historical possible FA. 

Nothing grinds my gears more than people putting down firsts, claiming they or their buddy did it 30 years ago with no proof. You see this all the time in the climbing scene, skateboarding scene, FKT scene, etc. and I really just don't understand it. "This doesn't count, my friend did this in 1980 but people didn't spray back then and he did it for himself, he wouldn't want me to share his name so I won't." So why even mention it? If no one heard about it and they don't want the credit, you're just doing it to put down the person who went through the work of claiming it.

If you don't have sufficient evidence to prove it, didn't tell anyone, and you didn't go through any effort to claim the first then honestly it doesn't matter and don't get upset that someone else did. First ascent vs. first known ascent is just pedantry.

EDIT: I will say that the "new" FAer should go through some effort to find out whether their claim is valid, but if something can't be found in a reasonable amount of time then you can't blame them for claiming it.

Shay Subramanianwrote:

Nothing grinds my gears more than people putting down firsts, claiming they or their buddy did it 30 years ago with no proof. You see this all the time in the climbing scene, skateboarding scene, FKT scene, etc. and I really just don't understand it.

i invented the kickflip

curt86irocwrote:

i invented the kickflip

Shit you hear from the 50 year old crackhead at the skate park

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

 Most the credit should be given to those who enable others to get an ascent. In this situation, I think the fairest thing is to give credit to both the modern day bolter and the historical possible FA. 

You seem to have fully absorbed the development model I argue against in the Last Exit thread.  Many years ago a friend was complaining how his FA using mostly natural gear was bolted over and not reported by the primary developers of the area (Exit 38 in this case)  One of the reasons  was that  "they should get the credit because of the money they spent on bolts.'   

Darryl Cramerwrote:

You seem to have fully absorbed the development model I argue against in the Last Exit thread.  Many years ago a friend was complaining how his FA using mostly natural gear was bolted over and not reported by the primary developers of the area (Exit 38 in this case)  One of the reasons  was that  "they should get the credit because of the money they spent on bolts.'   

Except Darryl you were a guidebook author so I am confused why you didn't include the correct information in your guidebook? If you reported the FA to Burdo/whomever was writing the other guidebooks, that isn't an issue of a climb being retro bolted, that is an issue with the guidebook author not including correct information. That isn't the fault of the subsequent party. 

If you made no effort to get it included then, I don't know what to tell you.

If the subsequent party knew it had been done and retrobolted then seems like a poor choice.  I would be fine if the bolts were chopped. The people climbing it on gear should be the ones recognized. If you wanna chop the bolts at exit 47, I would take no issue. It seems clear you guys had done it on gear, now that I have climbed out there (although some I think are better with a few bolts). However, if someone came out of the wood work to claim orgasmatron/giant/mambo/K-9 crag prior to Burdo, I would think they are full of it.

If the subsequent party happened to bolt over something before it was included in the guidebook, I would have just included both parties. 

If you wanna come to the crag I have been bolting, I welcome you (although the approach trail is like semi wall but 20 times longer). I haven't bolted any cracks but according to Burdo/Kurt/AF/WARP, they didn't think anyone had climbed what I have been developing. I have found zero evidence of any people, not tat, no bolts, no pitons, nothing, I have been rebolting in the exits and know what the moss should look like if someone was already present. The rock itself is bizarre, much of it is like tuff or its terrible roof choss. Of the few cracks they also disappear halfway up or reappear. What I have been developing also cannot be top roped. You also can't get back to the ground without bolts as you would need at least a 90 meter rope from the top of the wall. There is also like 30 feet between many of the climbs and the wall is not connected to any established trail and is like a hour bushwack from the nearest wall. I really don't think I have adopted the "last exit model" but I am curious as to what ascents you know about that haven't been included in any guidebooks. 

We have also been cleaning off chossy boulders. It is pretty clear what has been done, so I would not claim those FAs since all they needed was a scrub. But if holds just rip off with body weight, someone could have done some weird variation but they put such low effort into scrubbing I would not have an issue with claiming the FA. If all someone had to was drill bolts but didn't have to trundle, glue, trail work, or scrub I would be skeptical of those FAs as well but would not fight them unless good evidence was produced to the contray. 

Shay Subramanianwrote:

Shit you hear from the 50 year old crackhead at the skate park

rodney mullen also stole all my tricks

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Except Darryl you were a guidebook author so I am confused why you didn't include the correct information in your guidebook? If you reported the FA to Burdo/whomever was writing the other guidebooks, that isn't an issue of a climb being retro bolted, that is an issue with the guidebook author not including correct information. That isn't the fault of the subsequent party. 

Now I am the one confused.  I wrote a guidebook to Index not 38. ( & Co authored an Index guide in the 80s)  I reported nothing to Bryan for routes in tat the Exits as I had nothing to report.  Dave, the FA who's FA was ignored)  on the other hand did report and was told in essence tough luck.  The discussion came up as Dave and I were writing a small "best of" guide that was a fund raiser for anchor replacement. No FA information was included in that guide and only a few pages related to the Exits.  

If you are going to endeavor into a vacation bolt sesh, be sure to bring your "Stallone Bolt Gun" for added speed and efficiency

Still confused by your responses.  I was not referring to the Fun Forest routes. (AKA Exit 47) I specifically mentioned Exit 38. In Sky Valley I specifically state  that I was not reporting FA information at the Fun Forest and nearby crags because people had been climbing there for many years and there was no way of knowing who did what.  I did not have correct FA information to report.  The Fun Forest was in Smoot's first WA Rock guide.  It is a 40 foot crag that had been TR and lead for decades by the time "developers" arrived.  

EDIT:  The post this was responding to is now modified and below this one. Seriously?

Darryl Cramer wrote:

Which areas of 38 are you upset about then? Generally you take most issue with exit 47, I assumed that is what you meant.

Curmudgeon Donwrote:

Exactly how I pictured you look. Is that the sf brajmahalla? Let's climp together!!! 

Just a lot more reasons why FAs don't matter.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116157988/why-fas-dont-matter

Tradibanwrote:

Just a lot more reasons why FAs don't matter.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116157988/why-fas-dont-matter

Is everything always about you? Why can’t you let me bask in the limelight for a day or two? Guess that’s what I get for calling you out… glad you came back into the conversation. Couldn’t be the profile I am today without all your tradifans. Thanks for bumping my post brother!

Curmudgeon Donwrote:

Is everything always about you? Why can’t you let me bask in the limelight for a day or two? Guess that’s what I get for calling you out… glad you came back into the conversation. Couldn’t be the profile I am today without all your tradifans. Thanks for bumping my post brother!

(hat tip)