A sign of the times? (please help me understand the world we now live in)

@ Trad Man--Many of the posty here present some good points.  I don't have the answers, and I have no idea who is right/wrong, but I do want to say the following:

I really liked the nature pictures you took.  

If I was in a place with that kind of natural beauty, I would be fine to have a close/accessible crag bolted, but if I walked higher up into a "mountain place" and found bolts such as you describe, and photographed, I would feel something had diminished, or dissapeared, a kind of wildness, which, to me, is an important part of the experience, however moderate/lame my climbing achievements and ability.

Basically, in a place of natural beauty, looking up at some rock wall and wandering lines, I'd be fine knowing that I could not/might not climb them, and it would be cool to think that, with the right trad gear and knowledge/experience, I could find my way to the top, and back down.  Gazing at the unadorend rock wall would fill me with wonder and challenge and dreams.  If I saw a gleaming line of bolts going up it would just be different.  

Am I agreeing with your post?  I'm not sure.  But something in what you are trying to express is important and valuable.  If you have any more pictures of that area (nature, rocks, peaks, area) I'd love to see them.  I spent six or seven summers in the Rockies, and I miss it greatly.  

Trad Manwrote:

LOL! 

How often do you climb over fixed lines in new areas? Thought you had a free solo first ascent that day…. Why would you brag about “not clipping any bolts” when you are free soloing over someone’s fixed lines?

Trad Manwrote:

Chad, I've made perfectly clear I'm not taking about Wildcat One. ALL the bolts I've seen on Music Mountain were placed thoughtlessly. If you know how to climb, you won't clip a single one I've thus encountered. Anyone can lead either the half-bolted route (two lines sharing a 10d crux) or "Cold and Ugly" (9) or just survey the anchor locations on top and the ones on the west side to see for themselves. I posted two photos not because they were the worst, but because those were the only photos I took. I think my 2nd has some of me leading it if we really want to make a show.

The ONLY questionable pro I placed on the first route I just mentioned had no option of clipping a bolt, ironically enough, although a good nut was found soon after. The second has excellent and casual pro next to every single bolt and then some. 3rd pitch is in a gully and should be avoided, leading or abseiling. Climbing the natural line does so, but rap bolters often don't know where the natural line goes for reasons I hope I don't have to explain.

Bolted 12ft boulder is at the base of what I've been calling Jabba the Rock. I hoped the shiny objects were mica until my fears were confirmed. Bolted scramble is supposedly published somewhere and is labelled a two pitch 5.6.

Again, I agree that at least one of us is full of crap, and reality will cut right through it.

As for easy leads for new climbers, there are tons of easy leads! There are easy leads at Wildcat One! I soloed a 5.6 (or 7 if you suck at squeeze chimneys. I don't want to be accused of "gatekeeping") on the rock above Wildcat One. Jabba the Rock has a 5.7 (probably a six with a brush for the lichen) I soloed to free a rope (when the wind managed to create a friction hitch with the last 5" of tail). The gully looks like it has some other options for those who don't want to lead 5.9. Pro doesn't make the climb "Cold and Ugly" harder, anyway! You pull exactly the same moves, you find a stance, and while standing you plug some gear. If you remove all the bad bolts from Music, you have a nice training ground of mixed lines at Wildcat One before any newb wants to cut their teeth on something more daring, but if you bolt everything that simply doesn't exist!

I know you’re not taking about WC1 in this instance.  

Music Mountain- you said that all the cracks were bolted.  That’s not true.  You also said it was grid bolted - that’s not true  

Wildcat One - you said it was grid bolted That’s not true.

You also said the approach trail was poorly built and laid out.  Then you changed your opinion mid thread and now say it’s well built and thoughtfully laid out.  This may be a simply because of unclear writing on your part not clarifying the the trail to the Wildcat Area and the trail from Wildcat One to Music Mountain

I agree that bolting a crack isn’t a good idea - even if the pro is tricky . I don’t think doing so is lowering the level of climbing to accommodate new climbers though.  Nor do I think providing easier multi pitch climbs are bad.

I do not agree with your opinion that all the bolts on MM are placed thoughtlessly.  Some are awkward locations, however I can see why they were placed where they are. 

Edit to add:

I'm reaching my post limit so I'll add this here

Ball Gibbs- I think you're a hypocrite.  

You yourself have placed bolts protected climbs.  I was sent this by a local climber . . . 

In addition I know you  you actively avoided speaking to the person developing Musical Mountain. This may stem from the debacle you had moving the developers fixed line on the 15 meter exit to Cold and Ugly. You untied the fixed line, moved it, and left the quick link open and ready to fall out. You didn't have the decency to even attempt to move the fixed line back. The person developing MM witnessed all of this but stayed quiet.

One last thing - that bolt on the boulder in MM - the route developer didn't place that.  In fact we're not sure who did.  

Bruno Schullwrote:

I was in a place with that kind of natural beauty, I would be fine to have a close/accessible crag bolted, but if I walked higher up into a "mountain place" and found bolts such as you describe, and photographed, I would feel something had diminished, or dissapeared, a kind of wildness, which, to me, is an important part of the experience, however moderate/lame my climbing achievements and ability.

Basically, in a place of natural beauty, looking up at some rock wall and wandering lines, I'd be fine knowing that I could not/might not climb them, and it would be cool to think that, with the right trad gear and knowledge/experience, I could find my way to the top, and back down.  Gazing at the unadorend rock wall would fill me with wonder and challenge and dreams.  If I saw a gleaming line of bolts going up it would just be different. 

Quoted as this explains my POV better than any of my retarded shitty ramblings. Perhaps had I the data in the canyon, I would have posted photos with minimal commentary. A photo is worth a thousand words, and often cannot even be put into words.

Am I agreeing with your post?  I'm not sure.  But something in what you are trying to express is important and valuable.  If you have any more pictures of that area (nature, rocks, peaks, area) I'd love to see them.  I spent six or seven summers in the Rockies, and I miss it greatly.  

Start a different thread for your landscape photos…. We want to see pictures of these horrific routes and strange bolts. Still curious how often you climb over fixed lines in new areas.

If two myopic pictures could substantiate the entire story, Amber Heard would have a net worth of at least $2 million…

2 pictures… 

2 bolts…

One crack… (not referring to OP)

And luckily the developer is readily approachable and easy to talk to, or I’d be in agreement with you about the bolt on the loose block in the gulley, but that’s not one of his bolts.

Thanks for the nature pics Trad Man!  That place looks really nice.  I'd love to wander around there.  Forget about all the bolting stress--just go out and hike and climb!

Unaweep is a really beautiful and great place to climb. I love it and am fortunate to have it in my backyard. 

Chad Millerwrote:

Unaweep is a really beautiful and great place to climb. I love it and am fortunate to have it in my backyard. 

Now there's something we can all agree on.

I'm giving Ball a lot of shit here, but I'm not far off in my own viewpoints. Ask anybody, I've got a huge ego when it comes to climbing, so running into others like me yields zest. The only reason I get partners these days is because I cook a hella gangster breakfast burrito.

As for Curmudgeon Don: I'm a card-carrying millenial with daddy issues and I will make you love me or die trying.

 I do give JP props for establishing a fully-bolted multipitch on Music Mountain since the closest place to get that is Ouray. 

Lest this post sound too conciliatory and the Mayor thinks I'm getting soft in my old age, my standing offer to engage in fisticuffs with Buck Rockwell still stands.

Trad Manwrote:

The Bad (representative of nearly every bolt):

The ugly (the other bolts):

Jesus Christ.

Can any sport climbers explain how trad climbers are supposed to take this, that isn't just a big "fuck your climbing style"?

Developers - they paved paradise and put up a parking lot.

Trad Manwrote:

Randall, I had no intention of dragging anyone, and the small crag below doesn't really irk me (much). However, it seems that the next rock wasn't developed in the same way and I'm honestly struggling to understand what purpose it serves. You say it serves a different style. What style is this? I honestly don't know. Honest!

Again, I'm not chopping bolts or just negging from an ivory tower. We all have different perspectives and stupid opinions on the interwebs aren't going to change on the interwebs. I do, however, believe that learning to climb the route with gear just might, and perhaps then a new perspective can be gained. The gear placements were casual, at the same altitude as every bolt, and 2x as much gear as bolts, likely. 

I did enjoy my brief stay, and to summarize here are a few photos I snapped.

The Good:

The Bad (representative of nearly every bolt):

The ugly (the other bolts):

Bonus:

The bolt next to the bomber crack is stupid.. that’s basically my takeaway from this. How’d you lose all that skin on your ankle? 

Randall Chapmanwrote:

I cant speak to those bolts as it wasn't my friends or I that placed them and anything I have to say would be conjecture.

I know you weren't calling anyone out, and I didn't take it that way. I think the term "grid bolting" was a gross overstatement considering there are only two sport routes on the block, out of 32 or 33 routes that were put up. The rest are all mixed or pure trad, cracks in Unaweep just aren't continuous and some bolts are often needed. Other than that I think we are just at a difference of opinion. Hopefully our schedules will line up soon to chat and maybe I can help answer some of your questions. 

Good luck chatting with the Larry David of climbing…..

Chad Millerwrote:

I agree with your views on wanting as few bolts as possible. You’re still being unreasonable though. You’re making assumptions about an area you know nothing about and  been to.

I understand why you’d make these assumptions based on the OP’s comments though. The issue is that the OP is exaggerating about the grid bolting to the point of being dishonest. 

Those two bolts in the OP’s pics may not be great however they are not representative  of all bolts placed at the area in question. I don’t agree with the bolted crack - that’s one section on one easy route with tricky / bad pro.  Considering it’s the only area for new climbers Unaweep I can see why it was bolted though. 

I don't know a single person in this thread, so I can't say if he's exaggerating, or his opponents are... could be a little of both for all I know. But I just reread the OP and his comments, and it sure seems that he's coming from a place of sincerity and humility. I cannot say the same about some of the vile, dismissive, personal attacks I've read in response to him. Are we really at a place where anytime someone speaks up about something bad they experience, that they have to deal with this kind of BS? Sure, be skeptical, but character assassination and harassment? MP/internet forum or not, that's just shameful, and it sure indicates to me that if anyone here is a troll (ahem, T1), it's those speaking against him. 

The photos (representative or not) are indicative of thoughtless bolting. One of a bolt on what seems to be a chockstone holding up a bunch of loose rocks and dirt, ready to kill everyone below if a fall occurs on it, and a bolt next to a textbook gear placement in what looks like great rock.  

Trad Manwrote:

The ugly (the other bolts):

Jesus H Christ

I'm guessing the person who placed that bolt is never going to show up here and defend its work...

it certainly looks like a loose block to me?   A better approach would have been to completely and accurately photo document the route rather than go on a rambling rant.   a single bolt next to a crack dosent mean much if the route was 12 bolts and only one of them was next to a gear placement. If most of them were next to gear placements then obviously we have a problem.  as far as bolting in loose blocks that certainly looks like a really poor choice of placement. Lots of folks just should not own drills.. 

Make sure to get Trad Man’s new guidebook “Trad Man 3000: The Babble of a Lonely Unaweep FAer…” 

TBH, your “28 FAs” on an obscure chunk of stone that isn’t even large enough to have 10 routes sounds just as poor etiquette as the bolting. Maybe you could let virgin choss be and move on with your life? I mean, you ever consider WHY there’s no routes on it?

Does every rock need to be climbed and claimed as your FA? If so concerned, why continue to develop the area?

Trad Manwrote:

Chad, I've made perfectly clear I'm not taking about Wildcat One. ALL the bolts I've seen on Music Mountain were placed thoughtlessly. If you know how to climb, you won't clip a single one I've thus encountered. Anyone can lead either the half-bolted route (two lines sharing a 10d crux) or "Cold and Ugly" (9) or just survey the anchor locations on top and the ones on the west side to see for themselves. I posted two photos not because they were the worst, but because those were the only photos I took. I think my 2nd has some of me leading it if we really want to make a show.

The ONLY questionable pro I placed on the first route I just mentioned had no option of clipping a bolt, ironically enough, although a good nut was found soon after. The second has excellent and casual pro next to every single bolt and then some. 3rd pitch is in a gully and should be avoided, leading or abseiling. Climbing the natural line does so, but rap bolters often don't know where the natural line goes for reasons I hope I don't have to explain.

Bolted 12ft boulder is at the base of what I've been calling Jabba the Rock. I hoped the shiny objects were mica until my fears were confirmed. Bolted scramble is supposedly published somewhere and is labelled a two pitch 5.6.

Again, I agree that at least one of us is full of crap, and reality will cut right through it.

As for easy leads for new climbers, there are tons of easy leads! There are easy leads at Wildcat One! I soloed a 5.6 (or 7 if you suck at squeeze chimneys. I don't want to be accused of "gatekeeping") on the rock above Wildcat One. Jabba the Rock has a 5.7 (probably a six with a brush for the lichen) I soloed to free a rope (when the wind managed to create a friction hitch with the last 5" of tail). The gully looks like it has some other options for those who don't want to lead 5.9. Pro doesn't make the climb "Cold and Ugly" harder, anyway! You pull exactly the same moves, you find a stance, and while standing you plug some gear. If you remove all the bad bolts from Music, you have a nice training ground of mixed lines at Wildcat One before any newb wants to cut their teeth on something more daring, but if you bolt everything that simply doesn't exist!

Real question for Trad Man 5000: why does every post you make reference your free solos? Does your ego boost have anything to do with the issue at hand of sustainability or crag preservation? Why da fack you climbing at MM anyways? Go to mothers or Sunday wall!

“There are plenty of easy climbs, DID I MENTION I FREE SOLO THEM?!” 

Here is the sign of our times...YOU...I still dont understand why Anyone would put an opinion on here without attaching their legal name to it...how brave are you really?  It's like yelling at people while driving by in your car.  Another person who wants the world to change for them but can't even take ownership of his own viewpoints...

Mike Robinsonwrote:

Here is the sign of our times...YOU...I still dont understand why Anyone would put an opinion on here without attaching their legal name to it...how brave are you really?  It's like yelling at people while driving by in your car.  Another person who wants the world to change for them but can't even take ownership of his own viewpoints...

Because some of us perhaps belong to a different demographic than you, sir? And generally have good reason to be more cautious, in general, online? Yes, there are whack jobs out there, and yes, MP is not immune, although it is way better than it could be. Some on here don't disclose any personal info. I choose to be in the middle. 

Best, Helen

EDIT to add, I am not following this thread after the start of the OP's first post. Skimming, at most.