A sign of the times? (please help me understand the world we now live in)

Trad Manwrote:

Go smoke bowls and climb moderates to your heart's content. 

Moderate climbing is an illegal substance as per the United States federal government, regardless of what the state of Colorado has decreed.

 By encouraging readers to participate in moderate climbing, you are an accessory to a federal crime. Not only that, but you are pressuring impressionable youth to partake in an activity that has long-lasting ramifications for their health, safety and financial well-being.

You misspelt Chouinard. 

So, I didn’t read through all of the posts but I did read the original post and a hand full of others. I have to say that I don’t entirely disagree with the OP. I obviously feel differently on several of his points but I still respect his right to state them, this is an open forum. It appears to me that he was trying to be general and not call people out. He posted in “General Climbing”, never mentioned a crag or even what state it was in or any of the people involved and y’all drug me into it haha. I appreciate the kind words but would have been happy to have been left out of this one. My real, full name is posted on every route I ever posted and anyone is welcome to hit me up to discuss any issue they have with one or all of my routes, and the OP has reached out to me.

Trad Man, I feel you make some good points about clean climbing but there is another style that should be considered, and from your statements I feel you understand that. I think that there is enough room for both and there is a natural line that gets drawn, at least around here, where the stuff that is next to the road gets developed as you stated but it doesn’t take that far of a hike to get to cleaner rock. Why can’t we both have what we are looking for without typing up a long MP post. My buddy Mike puts up some crazy off width nastiness that doesn’t appeal to me, my buddy Paul puts up kitty litter towers that also don’t interest me, my buddy James puts up nasty desert splitters that I don’t think anyone should climb, but I think it’s F-ing rad that they do it. I think we can all find our niche and continue to get along. You don’t understand my style of development and that’s ok, you did reach out to me but both of us spend all of our time out of service but we’ll get a conversation in eventually. Hopefully we come to an understanding, but if not, that’s ok too.

I look forward to checking out your lines and would like to thank you for putting them up. It sounds like they will represent a style that will really appeal to some climbers and it adds to their experience. Every route/crag doesn’t need to be developed the same, and it’s great that people have options.

Aaron K wrote:

Here's an overview of the formation in question. A bit of a choss pile but it has some nice cracks

Edit: As Chad mentioned below, Wildcat One is the "grid bolted" crag, while the rest of Mr. Trad's post was about the neigboring Music Mountain, which was as far as I know was developed by different people, and not for the purpose of new or disabled climbers.

It was developed by different people, I know them but didn't know they were working there till about a week or two before they posted to MP. 

R K wrote:

Did anybody actually read the post? TL;DR

Old man yells at clouds, attempts to post e-dick pick but fails because he can't stop mentally masturbating. 

Chad Millerwrote:

Is that a new international flavor of Nutella that belongs to no one?  Does it go well with mutton?  

Dearest Chad,

I am 99 percent positive, like 50 percent of the time, that “Terra Nullius” is Latin. So… like at least early 90’s or something.

It brings me much joy thinking about you knuckles deep into a jar of Nutella hanging out with your sheep friends, but I don’t eat mutten (wrong species, unless you’re from India), nor do I eat Nutella (nut allergy).

Best, Old Daddy Don

Curmudgeon Donwrote:

Dearest Chad,

I am 99 percent positive, like 50 percent of the time, that “Terra Nullius” is Latin. So… like at least early 90’s or something.

It brings me much joy thinking about you knuckles deep into a jar of Nutella hanging out with your sheep friends, but I don’t eat mutten (wrong species, unless you’re from India), nor do I eat Nutella (nut allergy).

Best, Old Daddy Don

Latin you say? I thought Nutella originated in Italy!?  

Oh well, much like the Latin version I can’t possess, consume, or go knuckle deep in Nutella. Type 1 Diabetic.   

Connor Dobsonwrote:

Old man yells at clouds, attempts to post e-dick pick but fails because he can't stop mentally masturbating. 

Man, you really like to bring the dick imagery to a thread, don't you... lol. 

Anyway, I've definitely seen, and more than once, some fresh out of the gym new climber on FB mention that they want to get into "developing". It all reminds me of that girl who got busted trying to add "art" to national parks a few years ago. 

There might be some merit to just letting some "sacrificial" choss crags go to the gym bolt gunners. Even better, open some gyms with retractable roofs, let the public "set/develop", and everyone gets to feel like a hero!

Brandon Rwrote:

Man, you really like to bring the dick imagery to a thread, don't you... lol. 

Anyway, I've definitely seen, and more than once, some fresh out of the gym new climber on FB mention that they want to get into "developing". It all reminds me of that girl who got busted trying to add "art" to national parks a few years ago. 

There might be some merit to just letting some "sacrificial" choss crags go to the gym bolt gunners. Even better, open some gyms with retractable roofs, let the public "set/develop", and everyone gets to feel like a hero!

If it's choss why do you care so much about it? 

Or does it just feel good for your ego to trash talk others?

Genuinely curious if you have ever seen these people who want to go develop, actually go and do it. Takes about 5 seconds to post something, takes a lot longer to scrub a new line. I can't see a lot of these posters that you refer to actually going out, buying bolting gear, assessing a line, rapping in and bolting it. I think it's more just pearl clutching tbh but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

If it's choss why do you care so much about it? 

Or does it just feel good for your ego to trash talk others?

I don't know that it is choss, thus, I can't say whether I care or not. I do care if it spreads to non choss though. Either way, shitty bolting is shitty bolting, and natural spaces deserve better treatment. It has nothing to do with ego, but keep pushing that easier narrative. 

And did you already forget about that oh-so-eloquent response you just brought to the thread? Talk about trash talking... 

Brandon Rwrote:

I don't know that it is choss, thus, I can't say whether I care or not. I do care if it spreads to non choss though. Either way, shitty bolting is shitty bolting, and natural spaces deserve better treatment. It has nothing to do with ego, but keep pushing that easier narrative. 

And did you already forget about that oh-so-eloquent response you just brought to the thread? Talk about trash talking... 

You don’t know if it choss but you know it’s shitty bolting?

T1

Randall, I had no intention of dragging anyone, and the small crag below doesn't really irk me (much). However, it seems that the next rock wasn't developed in the same way and I'm honestly struggling to understand what purpose it serves. You say it serves a different style. What style is this? I honestly don't know. Honest!

Again, I'm not chopping bolts or just negging from an ivory tower. We all have different perspectives and stupid opinions on the interwebs aren't going to change on the interwebs. I do, however, believe that learning to climb the route with gear just might, and perhaps then a new perspective can be gained. The gear placements were casual, at the same altitude as every bolt, and 2x as much gear as bolts, likely. 

I did enjoy my brief stay, and to summarize here are a few photos I snapped.

The Good:

The Bad (representative of nearly every bolt):

The ugly (the other bolts):

Bonus:

Chad Millerwrote:

You don’t know if it choss but you know it’s shitty bolting?

T1

The OP, and others, have mentioned several times that this place was just an example for a more general trend. I for one happen to believe him, given what I've seen at other places. And now he has pics to confirm. All I really want is for people who bolt to show some restraint, and maybe give some serious thought about what they're doing, before touching drill to rock. Is that really all that unreasonable?

I cant speak to those bolts as it wasn't my friends or I that placed them and anything I have to say would be conjecture.

I know you weren't calling anyone out, and I didn't take it that way. I think the term "grid bolting" was a gross overstatement considering there are only two sport routes on the block, out of 32 or 33 routes that were put up. The rest are all mixed or pure trad, cracks in Unaweep just aren't continuous and some bolts are often needed. Other than that I think we are just at a difference of opinion. Hopefully our schedules will line up soon to chat and maybe I can help answer some of your questions. 

Brandon R wrote:

The OP, and others, have mentioned several times that this place was just an example for a more general trend. I for one happen to believe him, given what I've seen at other places. And now he has pics to confirm. All I really want is for people who bolt to show some restraint, and maybe give some serious thought about what they're doing, before touching drill to rock. Is that really all that unreasonable?

I agree with your views on wanting as few bolts as possible. You’re still being unreasonable though. You’re making assumptions about an area you know nothing about and  been to.

I understand why you’d make these assumptions based on the OP’s comments though. The issue is that the OP is exaggerating about the grid bolting to the point of being dishonest. 

Those two bolts in the OP’s pics may not be great however they are not representative  of all bolts placed at the area in question. I don’t agree with the bolted crack - that’s one section on one easy route with tricky / bad pro.  Considering it’s the only area for new climbers Unaweep I can see why it was bolted though. 

Chad Millerwrote:

I agree with your views on wanting as few bolts as possible. You’re still being unreasonable though. You’re making assumptions about an area you know nothing about and  been to.

I understand why you’d make these assumptions based on the OP’s comments though. The issue is that the OP is exaggerating about the grid bolting to the point of being dishonest. 

Those two bolts in the OP’s pics may not be great however they are not representative  of all bolts placed at the area in question. I don’t agree with the bolted crack - that’s one section on one easy route with tricky / bad pro.  Considering it’s the only area for new climbers Unaweep I can see why it was bolted though.

Dumbing down things for nOObs is a job for gyms and guides IMO, I can easily take a hard stance on that.

(Avert your eyes, dearest Daddy Don: This post contains gratuitous developer spray! Here's a joke for you in the meantime: A Crossfitter, a vegan, a resident of Boulder and a first ascentionist walk into a bar -- how do you know which is which?)

I have a healthy appreciation for spice, and drill on lead from stances 90% of the time. Out the last fifty pitches that I have established, there are only eleven protection bolts total. One of them I begrudgingly added after ripping a blue ballnut on a 5.11 face move on the onsight FA attempt and coming within inches of decking.

One of the other GJ developers on this thread told me many years ago that putting up a PG-13 or R route is purely a matter of FA ego. I couldn't disagree more with that, or with the "don't like it don't clip it" myopic line of reasoning.

I can sympathize with the OP's perspective, although I think he should leave the Sound of Music soliloquies to Julie Andrews. ;-)

There needs to be a healthy spectrum of route development styles, from z-clipping your way up Shelf Road to befouling your trousers up Yosemite's evil twin. As long as nobody is retrobolting or thoroughly-bolting splitters, we can coexist.

(Rap-bolting a route to be spicy like KT did on the 5.9R start to Black Sun on Castleton is lame, because the FA gets the benefit of wiring the route on TR, and everyone else has to deal with the spice on the onsight. Great pitch, but poor development style, whatever).

Unaweep has some devious, tricky pro. That's part of the beauty of the place. But there are loads of spicy testpieces there, and very few safe beginner leads. I wouldn't want to throw a new sport leader on a mostly-bolted 5.6 and be like "oh, you need to wiggle in this offset nut otherwise it's anklebreaker territory." So, good for the developers there. Especially since this crag gets used by adaptive climbers and veterans with PTSD.

OP, your thread title requests help with understanding the climbing world we now live in. It's clear from your words that you don't really want that help.

I only lived there for twelve years, but one thing I noticed is that the Western Slope "climbing community" is like the Greek city-states of antiquity. They squabble amongst themselves, but if you roll in trying to deflower their vestal virgins ...

Trad Manwrote:

….and the trail seems reasonably thought out. No complaints!

Nobody seems to notice the OP is going back and forth on his words. I refuse to quote the original comment because it’ll take me 40 minutes to delete the “excess,” but it clearly states the “trail was thoughtless” in the original post, and then changes his statement to it being “reasonable, and NO COMPLAINTS.” You have plenty of complaints Trad Man, and they come out as rants. Literally, about 10,000 characters worth of complaints.

This is coming from a guy who shows up to a new area, climbs over fixed lines, and then sprays about bad ethics in a place that has maybe 1 posted route, because it is still in the process of being developed! Shit Randall, he’s even labeling your routes as “grid bolted” for an area you yourself have stated, “is being developed for folks with disabilities.” Think about that! How often do climbers, climb over fixed lines and then immediately spray crap about bad ethics; while simultaneously bolstering their lack of ego to the tune of “28 FA’s in 10 days?”

I am REALLY curious to know, who this guy found as a partner… would love for that gent to chime in, and speak to their experience with this bubbly bunch of coconuts.

Chad Millerwrote:

Those two bolts in the OP’s pics may not be great however they are not representative  of all bolts placed at the area in question. I don’t agree with the bolted crack - that’s one section on one easy route with tricky / bad pro.  Considering it’s the only area for new climbers Unaweep I can see why it was bolted though. 

Chad, I've made perfectly clear I'm not taking about Wildcat One. ALL the bolts I've seen on Music Mountain were placed thoughtlessly. If you know how to climb, you won't clip a single one I've thus encountered. Anyone can lead either the half-bolted route (two lines sharing a 10d crux) or "Cold and Ugly" (9) or just survey the anchor locations on top and the ones on the west side to see for themselves. I posted two photos not because they were the worst, but because those were the only photos I took. I think my 2nd has some of me leading it if we really want to make a show.

The ONLY questionable pro I placed on the first route I just mentioned had no option of clipping a bolt, ironically enough, although a good nut was found soon after. The second has excellent and casual pro next to every single bolt and then some. 3rd pitch is in a gully and should be avoided, leading or abseiling. Climbing the natural line does so, but rap bolters often don't know where the natural line goes for reasons I hope I don't have to explain.

Bolted 12ft boulder is at the base of what I've been calling Jabba the Rock. I hoped the shiny objects were mica until my fears were confirmed. Bolted scramble is supposedly published somewhere and is labelled a two pitch 5.6.

Again, I agree that at least one of us is full of crap, and reality will cut right through it.

As for easy leads for new climbers, there are tons of easy leads! There are easy leads at Wildcat One! I soloed a 5.6 (or 7 if you suck at squeeze chimneys. I don't want to be accused of "gatekeeping") on the rock above Wildcat One. Jabba the Rock has a 5.7 (probably a six with a brush for the lichen) I soloed to free a rope (when the wind managed to create a friction hitch with the last 5" of tail). The gully looks like it has some other options for those who don't want to lead 5.9. Pro doesn't make the climb "Cold and Ugly" harder, anyway! You pull exactly the same moves, you find a stance, and while standing you plug some gear. If you remove all the bad bolts from Music, you have a nice training ground of mixed lines at Wildcat One before any newb wants to cut their teeth on something more daring, but if you bolt everything that simply doesn't exist!

Curmudgeon Donwrote:

Nobody seems to notice the OP is going back and forth on his words. I refuse to quote the original comment because it’ll take me 40 minutes to delete the “excess,” but it clearly states the “trail was thoughtless” in the original post, and then changes his statement to it being “reasonable, and NO COMPLAINTS.” You have plenty of complaints Trad Man, and they come out as rants. Literally, about 10,000 characters worth of complaints.

This is coming from a guy who shows up to a new area, climbs over fixed lines, and then sprays about bad ethics in a place that has maybe 1 posted route, because it is still in the process of being developed! Shit Randall, he’s even labeling your routes as “grid bolted” for an area you yourself have stated, “is being developed for folks with disabilities.” Think about that! How often do climbers, climb over fixed lines and then immediately spray crap about bad ethics; while simultaneously bolstering their lack of ego to the tune of “28 FA’s in 10 days?”

I am REALLY curious to know, who this guy found as a partner… would love for that gent to chime in, and speak to their experience with this bubbly bunch of coconuts.

LOL! The trail to Wildcat One isn't the same trail to Music. The trail to Wildcat One is fine (although most seem to cut past the first part which will probably become the new trail). Two different rocks, two different trails. Clear enough, Don?

You probably think I give a long speech at every summit, but I assure you the opposite is true. I'm usually just being ninja quiet and enjoying nature (where I can find it in these times). I think the only time I complained about the existing routes was during the raps which required extra shenanigans (I think my partner was even more vocal about that). You can go ahead and judge people by some off-the-cuff post written out of concern about his passion if you like, but once again if you actually want to cut through the BS you have to visit reality, and the real me probably isn't what you'd expect.