A sign of the times? (please help me understand the world we now live in)

F r i t z wrote:

How long have you been working at Pagan Mountaineering?

Are you the landowner that Crack of Don is named after?

…Current owners had to rescind access for insurance reasons.

Tsk tsk Mr. Goat. 

Land is not owned, but is merely leased from the Creator. Terra Nullius.

It would be tragic if some old timers had to complain about new bolts at a sport crag and thousands of other people got to enjoy new climbs that weren't polished and caked in chalk. The people that complain about overcrowding are the same people that complain about new routes and new crags that spread people out.

Curmudgeon Donwrote:

Tsk tsk Mr. Goat. 

Land is not owned, but is merely leased from the Creator. Terra Nullius.

Is that a new international flavor of Nutella that belongs to no one?  Does it go well with mutton?  

Curmudgeon Donwrote:

 Terra Nullius.

A fellow classicist? I'm liking you more and more with each post. Carry on. 

LOL! 

All the shit talking on this thread is as amusing as it is pathetic. I haven't addressed the claim that my brief mention of new routing is just a brag given anyone with at least two brain cells to rub together knows it's apropos to the discussion (let alone the lack of any mention of grades, publishing routes, downgrading existing routes, poo pooping the existence of a grid bolted crag etc.) 

However this one deserves special mention. In fact, I very well print out and frame it on my wall as I doubt that no matter how bad a mood I'll ever find myself in, I can just glance at it and crack up in stitches   

Chad Millerwrote:

I know who the OP is and the area he’s referring to.  He’s exaggerating quite a bit to the point of being dishonest.

The OP knows who developed these routes but isn’t willing to speak with them, the local climbing community or the Western Colorado Climber’s Collation.

I find this very odd.

You know what I find very, very odd Chadidad? I have no idea who you are, and yet here you are claiming to know who I am. Should I claim to know who you are? I'm sure your audience here is keen to know just exactly how you know who I am   

I'm not willing to speak with the developers, Chad? How do you square that with this statement (quoting the original post):

I'm not going to reveal the place until I've at least attempted to contact those responsible in person

You'll forgive me if I don't post screen shots of my private correspondence, which thus far has been cordial and friendly.

However, I must admit I do agree with what your post implies (other than the knowing me part, of course): at least one of us is being dishonest and at least one of us is full of shit. 

You know what's brilliant about reality? Anyone who wants to cut through the bullshit (like the previous post alluded to) only has to tear themselves away from this silly interweb posturing, grab their rack, and climb the route! 

Anyone who wants to do so, just PM me and I'll provide the MP link.

https://www.mountainproject.com/area/121307335/music-mountain 

This thread is a great example of the lack of perspective people have. It is a rock in the woods. For the love of god, please take a step back from the tiny world we live in. It is just a rock in the woods. 

Land mangers don't give two craps about obscure rocks no other humans go near. They just don't. They care far more about people getting into fights and waging a war about some hobby. Or people getting hurt. No intelligent person is going to care what 10 people do in the backwoods on some rock. They don't care if its bolted. They don't care if there is gear. 

You know what ruins access? People getting so worked up online, sending a link to some forum to a land manager screaming that something that is obscure is getting destroyed. But it doesn't just ruin it for sport climbers, it ruins it for everyone. If you actually cared you would muster up the courage to directly contact the developer. But no, this post reminds me of that annoying girl on high school that would air their "drama" on facebook.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

You wanna come protest logging?

Just leave the trees alone...so they can turn into huge wildfires.  

god damn boomers man, I swear. 

This rant should have been posted as a video confessional behind the wheel of a F250

RC and I don't see eye to eye on many issues, but he's a good dude who has done a lot for the community. Same with PV.

If it's their routes the OP is bashing, I'll back them up any day. They also pay property taxes here, work here and contribute time and money to the WCCC. I'm only a part-time member of the Western Slope community currently, but I support the development work that these two gentlemen are doing.

Trad Man, if you want to find partners out here -- and based on your frequent requests for the past three months it sounds like you need them -- you might want to reevaluate how you come across in your posts. Try adopting a cute fuzzy barn animal persona to counterbalance the vitriol -- worked wonders for me.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

The only thing that ever comes from climbers complaining to land managers about other climbers is loss of access. 

I agree with that statement yet I could easily replace the words " complaining to land managers about other climbers" with "inexperienced/narcissistic developers bolting willy nilly" and agree with that too.

Personally, tradmans rant was too hard on my eyes to actually read all the way, almost a TLDR. Can someone sum it up in a paragraph with actual names plz? Randos calling out randos isn't entertaining enough for this rain day.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

You know what ruins access? People getting so worked up online, sending a link to some forum to a land manager screaming that something that is obscure is getting destroyed. But it doesn't just ruin it for sport climbers, it ruins it for everyone. If you actually cared you would muster up the courage to directly contact the developer. But no, this post reminds on that annoying girl on high school that would air their "drama" on facebook.

Ironically, you’re not necessarily wrong about the internet enhancing “drama”, but your first 3 paragraph things come across in a way that I can’t help but think you are the exact same type of developer the OP takes issue with. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Ironically, you’re not necessarily wrong about the internet enhancing “drama”, but your first 3 paragraph things come across in a way that I can’t help but think you are the exact same type of developer the OP takes issue with. 

Shrug, my main project is drilled pockets into a permadrawed crack. However, I am too cheap to bolt a crack myself. 

Trad Manwrote:

LOL! 

All the shit talking on this thread is as amusing as it is pathetic. I haven't addressed the claim that my brief mention of new routing is just a brag given anyone with at least two brain cells to rub together knows it's apropos to the discussion (let alone the lack of any mention of grades, publishing routes, downgrading existing routes, poo pooping the existence of a grid bolted crag etc.) 

However this one deserves special mention. In fact, I very well print out and frame it on my wall as I doubt that no matter how bad a mood I'll ever find myself in, I can just glance at it and crack up in stitches   

You know what I find very, very odd Chadidad? I have no idea who you are, and yet here you are claiming to know who I am. Should I claim to know who you are? I'm sure your audience here is keen to know just exactly how you know who I am   

I'm not willing to speak with the developers, Chad? How do you square that with this statement (quoting the original post):

You'll forgive me if I don't post screen shots of my private correspondence, which thus far has been cordial and friendly.

However, I must admit I do agree with what your post implies (other than the knowing me part, of course): at least one of us is being dishonest and at least one of us is full of shit. 

You know what's brilliant about reality? Anyone who wants to cut through the bullshit (like the previous post alluded to) only has to tear themselves away from this silly interweb posturing, grab their rack, and climb the route! 

Anyone who wants to do so, just PM me and I'll provide the MP link.

I said I know who are - ie your real name, your behavior on local climbing forums, and the few PM’s you’ve sent to local climbers trying to get partners.  

You haven’t contacted any local climbers or route developers about bolting. They have attempted to speak with you though and you won’t respond.  Instead you post here.

Very odd. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Shrug, my main project is drilled pockets into a permadrawed crack. However, I am too cheap to bolt a crack myself. 

Lou….Louie? Is that you?!

For us in the audience (and to help make the OP's case), photos would be very helpful. 

It’s an area called Wildcat One. If the OP had bothered to speak with locals or route developers he’d know that area was developed for new and disabled climbers.  Hence why there are a bunch of climbs under a 5.6.

Regardless, the OP’s claim of grid bolting isn’t true.

Edit to add:  

Arron K is correct. The Wildcat Complex has Wildcat One and Music Mountain. 

I’ve climbed at both areas and don’t agree with anything Trad Man / Ball Gibbs has posted about them. 

Chad Millerwrote:

I said I know who are - ie your real name, your behavior on local climbing forums, and the few PM’s you’ve sent to local climbers trying to get partners.  

You haven’t contacted any local climbers or route developers about bolting. They have attempted to speak with you though and you won’t respond.  Instead you post here.

Very odd. 

 Oh Chaddiwack, you don't know my name (what silly game are you even trying to play here?) and I have contacted local climbers. You really do try to sound clairvoyant, or maybe a Fed   

Anyway, just to be clear (since this thread is escaping the pull of reality), I had an excellent time here. There were lots of cool animals and remnants to look at, and if one goes far enough off the beaten path and bolted cracks, boulders, and 3rd class ramps, one almost finds oneself in nature. I even nearly stepped on a elk calf. I also got plenty of climbs in most of which were enjoyable.

The point was never about egos. The point was never about land managers or other assorted authoritarian tools. A bolt ban is going to negativity effect mountaineers, not just gym rats.

I don't think this medium allows me to evoke or explain how I experience natural beauty through my eyes, or the sense of accomplishment one feels when one summits in large part due to one's wit, nerve, and hard-earned skills, or simply a spirit of adventure. I find it a great pity that so few people experience anything like that, or in this case dismiss it as just egoism. If anything, it's the opposite: if you stand in front of a 350ft unclimbed rock with no knowledge of what physical difficulty, run-outs, loose rock, etc. you may encounter that can only make you feel small. Grid bolt and civilize it and you can act like a complete egotistical jackass without consequence.

Technically, a Walmart parking lot is outdoors. Is that what we're going for here? Just an open gym area with paved access and a smoothie bar? If they were cheap enough, we could dispence with the bolts and add an autobelay. Keep in mind that I haven't altered any of these developments. All I have contributed are stinky opinions. If the guy in the process of grid bolting this rock wants, I can take him up some climbs and maybe that will expand his horizons. Maybe then he will see what he has done in error and seek to rectify it. It's not my place to force the issue any more than you can forbid me from clean climbing, but try to consider where this is all headed.

As misunderstood as the clean climbing ethic was in '72, it seems even more misunderstood now.

Chad Millerwrote:

It’s an area called Wildcat One. If the OP had bothered to speak with locals or route developers he’d know that area was developed for new and disabled climbers.  Hence why there are a bunch of climbs under a 5.6.

Regardless, the OP’s claim of grid bolting isn’t true. 

Are you ever right about anything, Chad?

I have no problem with that tiny crag (I swore I said as much in the original post. Do people even read?) Go smoke bowls and climb moderates to your heart's content. For what it's worth, they didn't bolt the cracks at that crag, or 12ft boulders, or 3rd class ramps, and the trail seems reasonably thought out. No complaints!

The reason I didn't identify the rock publicly is because I don't want anyone being bent out of shape due to my flailing attempt at constructive criticism. I'm not trying to drag anyone. I'm trying to have a discussion about clean climbing and how abandoning such practices may lead to ruin for a veriety of reasons. It wasn't even specially about this one rock (although it stands out as the prime example as I've ever seen of what I'd consider poor on most counts). We're at a crossroads with this civilizing gym ethic and I'm literally having dreams of climbing rocks in North Korea.

As misunderstood as the clean climbing ethic was in '72, it seems even more misunderstood now.

That's because you're a boomer espousing outdated ideas and can therefore be summarily dismissed. Don't take offense, every generation does this to their elders. It's just human nature. They know everything of course. And they have to incur some of the costs of the mistakes of previous generations.  Hence the many offensive attitudes that get voiced here. It takes time for youth to begin to consider the world outside of their own unique generational views. Or it did me, for sure. And too it takes time for every generation to begin to come to grips with their own youthful excess.