Softest and Stiffest Trad Routes per Grade in WA

The issue with index is that unlike other places you sometimes can’t alter the body movement to be ergonomic for your personal preference. It’s like a moonboard with one foot chip.

The other issue is that there isn’t a predominant ethic for grading stuff. Most seem to inflate at their maximum grade and sandbag at the easier stuff.

Another issue is the boulderyness of the non classic climbs. Like kadvar has a hard boulder problem but the rest of the route is chill. Some people will call I v2 others v4 which gives you 5.11a-5.12a as the grade range.

The last issue is the unorthodox beta, like tuna boaters was truly impossible for me to chimney. I fell and then just knee barred the whole thing no problem.

These are all elements to why I don’t love index. I wanna just try hard regardless of the grade and it ends up being way too easy or way too hard.

Edit: hank I think it depends on what your using for grades. But on mountain project I think toxic shock is 5.6 to 10c. Fair enough but if we’re gonna talk about what’s stiff and soft I think it’s fair to mention that the grades are all over the place in index. Sucker punch and climax control are not even in the same universe. I also know people that have sent fifth force and never sent an 11 in index. I have meant a lot of people that have never sent iron horse and sent numba 12. What is the function of a grade system if it’s not consistent?

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I didn’t think Libra crack was anything crazy but I’m 6’3’’ + 4 so I think I skipped the hardest moves/have perfect hand size?

The issue with index is that unlike other places you sometimes can’t alter the body movement to be ergonomic for your personal preference. It’s like a moonboard with one foot chip.

Tell that to Ben Gilk... lol

The other issue is that there isn’t a predominant ethic for grading stuff. Most seem to inflate at their maximum grade and sandbag at the easier stuff.

I whole heartedly disagree with this, I think Index is far far more sandbagged in the 5.11s than any other grade (Although full disclosure I don't have much volume above Index 5.11D). This was close to the maximum grade for Index climbers at the time of a lot of those FAs. I personally think Leavenworth is far stiffer in the 5.9-5.10 range. 

The last issue is the unorthodox beta, like tuna boaters was truly impossible for me to chimney. I fell and then just knee barred the whole thing no problem.

Do you want every route to be an IC handcrack with the same move for 100ft? 

These are all elements to why I don’t love index. I wanna just try hard regardless of the grade and it ends up being way too easy or way too ha

The exit's and vantage are where its at! best climbing in WA!

Also this is supposed to be a forum about stiff/soft routes, not an expose on why index hurts your feeling. 

slimwrote:

It's kind of funny to see aries listed as a hard 8. It would be pretty standard 8 at areas with a modest amount of wide climbing.

Hardest for the grade. Hmmm. Tough question. There was a 9 somewhere near ski tracks that had a hard dirty mantle tha was kind of eye opening.

Easiest for the grade? Probably thin fingers. Everybody tells you index is so stiff, somebody died on it, etc. I was kind of disappointed by it.

PNW climbers don't get a lot of practice at climbing the wide. Makes sense that anyone working their way up through the classic moderates would get spanked by Aries, that kind of climbing just isn't as prevalent in the Cascades as some other places. Same goes for the last pitch of the west face of CBR, and probably some others. It's not ridiculously sandbagged, just out of place in the Cascades. 

There's some contrived BS around the crux of Thin Fingers. I remember one of the first times I climbed it, I stemmed out right for one move to gain the good foot on the crux slab, and someone told me it didn't count cause I did it "the 5.10 way". Bud, if it's that simple to do a crux section a number grade easier, I think that means the route is a number grade easier... I just wish there weren't so many ledges on that pitch. 

IMO the stiffest pitch in the state is probably something obscure up on Midnight Rock or Bridge Creek Wall that never gets climbed. No specific pitches spring to mind but if I was looking to get egregiously sandbagged that's where I would go. 

Softest might be Lingerie (yes I climbed it straight in), or the crux pitch of the Passenger (when it was rated 12a) or the "11a" traverse pitch on the Hitchhiker. 

Jon Nelsonwrote:

Someone once told me that the key for a Michal route is to first become a master of the compression move. 

Or add a number grade…

Matthew Tangemanwrote:

Softest might be Lingerie, or the crux pitch of the Passenger (when it was rated 12a) or the "11a" traverse pitch on the Hitchhiker. 

The issue with the vantage cracks is that what’s “on” varies widely by climb.

The only point I was making is that if we acknowledge that the route grading is done on a scale and we are pointing out flaws in that scale and index consistently has the most flaws … that would imply index has a broken scale. Which is fine but worth acknowledging. The exits just have the most consistent scale which is not a statement about the climbing quality.

Your thread subject is asking which scale has the worst breaks. I was just addressing why index is what is mentioned most. I universally agree the exits are the softest!

I also think mical just randomly press a button. He told me to get on a climb he called 5.10 and it was exits 5.10.

Grades are arbitrary.  At index this is especially true because of the variety of climbing styles even within a single pitch.  In places like leavenworth where it's for the most part either a crack or a slab, grades are fairly consistent.  Solid on 5.11 crack at index?  How do those smith rock 11s feel?  It's all arbitrary, accept that we will never reach a perfect grading system where everything is rated exactly what you personally feel was the difficulty, just climb and have fun

Yuval Bwrote:

Grades are arbitrary.  

yeah but bickering about arbitrary things is what mp is all about

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

The issue with index is that unlike other places you sometimes can’t alter the body movement to be ergonomic for your personal preference. It’s like a moonboard with one foot chip.

You're doing it wrong.

The other issue is that there isn’t a predominant ethic for grading stuff. Most seem to inflate at their maximum grade and sandbag at the easier stuff.

Incorrect,  Index grading is both simple and consistent, at least up to 5.12:  If it's easier than Godzilla it's 5.8. If it's harder than Godzilla but easier than Sagittarius it is a 5.9. If it's harder than Sag but easier than Slow Children it's a 5.10. And, if it's harder than Slow Children but easier than full Japanese Gardens then it's 5.11.  Harder than JG is 5.12 and beyond.

Pumpline's definitely a sandbag at 11a but generally feel like most mp ratings are pretty accurate for trad around these parts.  Sport routes and boulders seem a lot less consistent

Hangdog Hankwrote:

+1 for Libra crack being a huge sandbag at 10a, its the same difficulty as Heart of Darkness in J tree, a soft 11 but a J tree 5.11- regardless. 

A block at the start fell out, and the grade was never adjusted. You can see it on the cover of one of the old guidebooks.

I think Index grades are the most inconsistent in WA, or just about any place I've climbed. You get used to it and just roll with the punches. Like said earlier grades are arbitrary. 

I've also heard from visiting climbers that WA has a reputation for having the most inconsistent grades. Even in a place like Vantage that is generally soft, there are some outliers that are pretty stiff.

saign charlesteinwrote:

 I think Index grades are the most inconsistent in WA, or just about any place I've climbed. You get used to it and just roll with the punches. Like said earlier grades are arbitrary. 

I've also heard from visiting climbers that WA has a reputation for having the most inconsistent grades. Even in a place like Vantage that is generally soft, there are some outliers that are pretty stiff.

This is because WA climbers in general, and Index climbers in particular, exist in an isolated backwater where the grading is ruled by weird hangups, local exceptionalist ideas, and ego trips, rather than sensible comparison to broader national grading standards. 

And conditions. I forgot conditions. I have the theory that Index climbs are not actually sandbagged, they are just extremely conditions dependent and the grades are correct with good conditions. Unfortunately, good conditions only occur for about 7 hours per year.

Erroneous Publicuswrote:

You're doing it wrong.

By your logic everyone should become 6’3” like me and libra will be easier. Being short is wrong.

Model worker also doesn’t have a dyno cause people just don’t know how to stand up /sarcasm.

If I was wrong you would refute my points instead of just repeating the same circle jerk. Seems if a lot of people think index has the softest and the stiffest climbs people agree with me..

Back on topic, feet of strength is the softest trad climb and it’s not even a trad climb. All the stuff to the right of it is almost as hard.

saign charlesteinwrote:

A block at the start fell out, and the grade was never adjusted. You can see it on the cover of one of the old guidebooks.

^^This is the problem! That block fell out in the 1970s, and we still haven't acknowledged that the grade has changed

JCMwrote:

And conditions. I forgot conditions. I have the theory that Index climbs are not actually sandbagged, they are just extremely conditions dependent and the grades are correct with good conditions. Unfortunately, good conditions only occur for about 7 hours per year.

I thought this was the case for a long time, but the one time I climbed at the ltw in perfect conditions, I tried some 12b stemming corner and it still felt nails. (Just looked it up, it was Numbah 10) Normally I can at least bolt to bolt my way up most 12b’s fairly quickly.  In this case I eventually did the moves, but it took way, way more effort than it usually would.

Compare that to a trip years earlier when I sent the crux of rise and fall (on top rope) second try mid summer in absolutely shit conditions.  At the time I’m not sure I’d sent anything harder than 12+ and definitely hadn’t spent as much time on the 5.12 grade in general at that point compared to the later data point. 

Max Tepferwrote:

I thought this was the case for a long time, but the one time I climbed at the ltw in perfect conditions, I tried some 12b stemming corner and it still felt nails. (Just looked it up, it was Numbah 10) Normally I can at least bolt to bolt my way up most 12b’s fairly quickly.  In this case I eventually did the moves, but it took way, way more effort than it usually would.

Compare that to a trip years earlier when I sent the crux of rise and fall (on top rope) second try mid summer in absolutely shit conditions.  At the time I’m not sure I’d sent anything harder than 12+ and definitely hadn’t spent as much time on the 5.12 grade in general at that point compared to the later data point. 

You are correct (my post on this conditions topic was mostly internet pot-stirring hyperbole). The low boulder problem on Numbah 10 is, in fact, nails. Even in good conditions.

Though there is an element of truth to this - the biggest challenge of Index is the scarcity of good conditions. Those that climb well there have to rearrange thier lives pretty aggressively to be able to be on location during the narrow windows of adequate condition. For a weekend warrior with other responsibilities it can be a tough crag to utilize, if good conditions don't align with the time you are available to be there. Most crags elsewhere are more forgiving on this matter.

The result is that most of the time, most Index climbers are climbing in bad conditions, which exacerbates the regular sandbagging. And the sandbagging is real - there is some wacky grading going on there.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

What is the function of a grade system if it’s not consistent?

agreed

"The exit's and vantage are where its at! best climbing in WA!"

Truer words have never been written!

Darryl Cramerwrote:

"The exit's and vantage are where its at! best climbing in WA!"

Truer words have never been written!

Prolly true for hardmen, I think the Tieton and Darrington are better for 5.10 climbers.      And Damnation is definitely the burliest 9 I’ve done in Washington.  I thought the Nose was fairly graded at 10+, it was not an 11 imao 

I could be mistaken but I think Damnation was rated 5.8 when I first climbed it.  Perhaps a hold or two has broken off over the years.