I don't feel like I'm getting any better...

I climbed in the 90's, but focused on big walls and long trad outings, never on pushing grades.  It may have helped a tiny bit toughen my finger tendons, but I doubt it did much.  After a 20 yr break, I'm back at it, this time pushing grades as hard as I can.

Started in 2016, sticking to 5.9 and down for a year trying to get back into shape.  Sent 11a outside in 2018, then my first 12a in Aug 2019.  Sent 8 more 12a's in 2020, mostly in the Colorado front range, but one was on St George sandstone, another in Rifle.  I've tried a ton of 12b's, but they seem so much harder than 12a, and some 12a's still shut me down.  On the 9c strength test ( https://www.thecrag.com/en/climbing/virtual/route/4430259711 ) I score 21 pts, so I should be able to climb 8a (or 5.13b) with perfect technique, if you believe that sort of thing.  And yet 12b seems out of reach.

The only thing I do is climb: 3 times a week, mostly indoors over the Winter but now going outside since Spring is here.  80% of my gym time is projecting boulders; I just sent my first V7 in March, but my progression on plastic seems to have had zero impact on my ability to climb on a route outdoors, including on short bouldery routes.  Outside, I almost exclusively get on projects after doing some easier routes to warm-up.  I almost never go on onsight binges, so my movement repertoire is often much more limited than people who climb more variety.

I don't do anything you would call "training" like hangboarding, 4x4s, arcing, campusing, etc.  The exception is that I do work on stretching/mobility and meditate (for mental training).  Sometimes I get on a rope in the gym and take a bunch of falls, trying to get the fear of falling out of my head.

I have watched young people take up the sport and pass me in the 5 years since I've been back at it.  This doesn't really surprise me... I'm 59 and I'm just not going to progress like a 20 yr old.  But I'm hoping to still improve before the inevitable decline of age takes hold.  I climb with someone much better than I am, who onsights most of my projects and helps me work on movement skills, but I wonder if I could benefit from sport specific training.  I'm thinking about hiring a coach or trainer, but I don't know what to expect from it or if it's just futile at this point.  My partner thinks I have a ton of room to improve on technique, resting, breathing, but when I can't do a 5.12 crux 3 moves off the ground I feel like it's something else. :)

Anyway, I'd love to hear from others who've felt stymied in their progression and what they did to break through.  I'm interested in your stories regardless of age, though obviously someone older will relate more to what I'm saying above. 

I don’t have anything to offer except that I’m impressed and want you to know that I (at age 46) have also plateaued and I don’t climb nearly as hard as you!

If you have not already, you may want to consider some form of cyclic training schedule such as the ones laid out in the  Anderson’s Rock Climbers Training Manual.  Just intuitively you can’t really expect to be in peak condition all of the time, especially as you get older (I’m 54 so no shade intended).  If you actually tried to do that, you’d just be perpetually dealing with overuse injuries.   

Cyclic training schedules consciously manage that so you’re building up towards periods of peak performance where you have your best shot at pushing grades   If you target a particular grade-pushing route for a particular cycle you can also integrate route-specific elements as part of your build-up.  Worth a shot if you’re stuck.   

At 3 days per week of unstructured time, your outcomes sound about right - can send a few 12-.  4 days minimum and doing the right things (like not getting injured) for anything harder.  You also just admitted you don’t actually train, so I would assume you don’t know how, and your posts support that - so that’s probably your second problem.

If you sent 8 12a's in a year there is no way you can't climb 12b. Unless they were all 20+ go projects that fit your style perfectly.

But still that's a huge discrepancy from the 9c test. FWIW I only scored 11 points and have done a few soft 12c's in 10-20 tries.

Do you have a variety of partners you can get honest technique and tactics feedback from? Because that's probably your best bet. Otherwise my completely evidence-free guess is that you probably climb overly slowly and statically.

John RBwrote:

I climbed in the 90's, but focused on big walls and long trad outings, never on pushing grades.  It may have helped a tiny bit toughen my finger tendons, but I doubt it did much.  After a 20 yr break, I'm back at it, this time pushing grades as hard as I can.

Started in 2016, sticking to 5.9 and down for a year trying to get back into shape.  Sent 11a outside in 2018, then my first 12a in Aug 2019.  Sent 8 more 12a's in 2020, mostly in the Colorado front range, but one was on St George sandstone, another in Rifle.  I've tried a ton of 12b's, but they seem so much harder than 12a, and some 12a's still shut me down.  On the 9c strength test ( https://www.thecrag.com/en/climbing/virtual/route/4430259711 ) I score 21 pts, so I should be able to climb 8a (or 5.13b) with perfect technique, if you believe that sort of thing.  And yet 12b seems out of reach.

The only thing I do is climb: 3 times a week, mostly indoors over the Winter but now going outside since Spring is here.  80% of my gym time is projecting boulders; I just sent my first V7 in March, but my progression on plastic seems to have had zero impact on my ability to climb on a route outdoors, including on short bouldery routes.  Outside, I almost exclusively get on projects after doing some easier routes to warm-up.  I almost never go on onsight binges, so my movement repertoire is often much more limited than people who climb more variety.

I don't do anything you would call "training" like hangboarding, 4x4s, arcing, campusing, etc.  The exception is that I do work on stretching/mobility and meditate (for mental training).  Sometimes I get on a rope in the gym and take a bunch of falls, trying to get the fear of falling out of my head.

I have watched young people take up the sport and pass me in the 5 years since I've been back at it.  This doesn't really surprise me... I'm 59 and I'm just not going to progress like a 20 yr old.  But I'm hoping to still improve before the inevitable decline of age takes hold.  I climb with someone much better than I am, who onsights most of my projects and helps me work on movement skills, but I wonder if I could benefit from sport specific training.  I'm thinking about hiring a coach or trainer, but I don't know what to expect from it or if it's just futile at this point.  My partner thinks I have a ton of room to improve on technique, resting, breathing, but when I can't do a 5.12 crux 3 moves off the ground I feel like it's something else. :)

Anyway, I'd love to hear from others who've felt stymied in their progression and what they did to break through.  I'm interested in your stories regardless of age, though obviously someone older will relate more to what I'm saying above. 

Classic case of "mental block", stop thinking about it and just climb.

It’s hard to give any advice without a sense of why you are failing on the 12b routes you are trying. I think the best thing you can do to improve is really think a lot about why you are failing. Ditch the ego and ask your partners for brutally honest critique of your climbing. Do some video analysis of your climbing, looking for weaknesses.

Once you find a few areas to improve, do some targeted training . it sounds like you have progressed about as far as you will with the casual just climb a few days a week routine. This might be as simple as incorporating some intentional technique drills into your warmups or as complex as a several month block of training to target your physical weaknesses. The crimpd app is a good tool for training if you aren’t sure where to start.  There are a ton of good books out there on  this stuff, or if you have the cash, plenty of good coaches.

One thing I have found incredibly helpful in my own progression has been doing mat Pilates classes. check out “move with Nicole” on YouTube. I feel much more confident in my ability to hold positions. tenuous clipping stances have suddenly become much more comfortable, and that makes it much easier to maintain a relaxed mental state and climb more efficiently.

If you can climb a true V7, you can climb .13-, period. 

If you want to get good at climbing sport routes outside then that is what you need to spend your time doing. A winter spent bouldering in the gym will get you good at... bouldering in the gym. Make a commitment to climbing 2 days a week outside all year round (no missing days, every week 2 days outside) and I guarantee you will be leading way harder in a year. And no excuses about the weather in winter not being good for climbing outside, you live in Boulder and winter is the best season for sending. Consistency doing what you want to be good at is the key.

rock climbing wrote:

If you train hard for 3 or 5 years you reach your peak performance level. After that is maintenance and maybe some improvement.

Source for this? 

Frank Steinwrote:

If you can climb a true V7, you can climb .13-, period. 

Sounds good on paper - but you only have the “potential” with your skills and strength to relatively quickly train into one - after maybe 4-8 weeks of PE training and 100 goes - or never.  It’s like using your 5k time to predict a marathon - the calculators out there will give a good estimate, but you’ll need to train distance for many weeks to realize it - or collapse well before the finish.

Was this V7 in the gym?  If so - great - likely good progress - maybe - but know gym bouldering grades are bullshit with no consensus.  There is also a MUCH lower technical bar to overcome in a gym - no such thing as an onsight or even a flash when all the holds and movement are obvious.  How many times have we all heard “I went from V4 to V8 after 3 weeks of hangboarding.”  Lol - sure you did.

Outside, your pacing will almost always be slower as well, especially on trad, so a very different animal to train and be strong for.

Adam’s advice on logging outdoor mileage can’t be overstated.

tldr - you’re older - you likely have money - go hire a coach - before it’s too late.  The self coached thing obviously isn’t working - call it and switch it up.

My wife (older than you and climbing for 20+ years) recently trained with Alex Stiger, and while she did get stronger, Alex really changed how she climbed. You sound plenty strong (I only scored 15 and climb 13a). You could probably benefit from a coach for movement and redpoint tactics.

First off, thank you all so much for taking the time to weigh in and offer your thoughts and opinions.  I'll try and address the questions above here in a single post.  Oh, and THANK YOU to all the people who said I should be proud of 5.12a at my age... I certainly did the first time I sent one... screamed my ass off so loud the truckers on Hwy 6 in Clear Creek probably thought someone was dying.  But you all know how this goes: 10 mins later you're already calling it soft and looking for the next project.

Regarding my 9 5.12a sends and how long they took... my first one was Power Trip ( https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105749005/power-trip ) and took 46 tries over a few months.  Some have gone much faster, like Slap Happy ( https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106376127/slap-happy ) in 7 goes.  Some (very soft) routes have gone in 2-3 tries like Bar None, Online Trading, Tumbling Stocks, and Joppa Road.  But despite finding a number of soft 12a's, soft 12b's seem to be rare.  At least that's my feeling... I've put good time into Crystal Ball ( https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106902164/crystal-ball ) but it's SOOO much harder than any 12a I've been on.  And the one guidebook 12b I've managed to one-hang, Hellbender ( https://www.mountainproject.com/route/114158750/hellbender ) is probably closer to 12a at my height, and is already getting the downgrade here on MP.

Regarding the indoor V7 I managed last March, this is it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauNXWha6qk&ab_channel=JohnBlack

The gym owner, Jason Haas, said "it's more like a gym V8" so I don't think it was soft for that gym. But of course the minute I sent it I said "it'd be V5 outside." :)  The plastic V7 took me 7 sessions and probably pulled on more than 100 times in those 7 days.  I don't think I have a prayer of sending an outdoor V7 right now.  I've never tried, but I had a close look at Into the Light in Clear Creek once ( https://www.mountainproject.com/route/108426683/into-the-light ) and the crux crimp is way smaller than anything I've ever successfully pulled on at that angle.

And to address the final point... I could definitely afford a coach.  I've listened to AS many times on Neely's pod and she sounds like a perfect fit for me (very analytical and thoughtful), I just really hate Movement Boulder. Lol.. I know that's a terrible reason to not reach out.  OK ok ok... I'll contact her.  snowdenroad's comment is very persuasive.

You look like you’re 35 in that video - lean and strong.  Movement skills need work - my 2c - maybe too much projecting and too many ez routes - as you posted - need more mileage slightly above flash grades - repeating novel and difficult problems and routes.  Yeah - and get on a program with a coach.

Ok so what’s the magic elixir because you look younger than me…

Hey John,

I think I met you a few weeks ago at G1 while climbing on the Kilter Board. We talked about training a bit. I'd be happy to climb with you some time and we can talk about training some more. Send me a DM if you're interested.

I know some other climbers that train with Alex and they do their workouts at whatever gym they want. In-person training/assessment is probably at Movement Boulder though.

Judging from your video, it looks like 1. you're strong 2. your movement skills need a ton of work. I'd bet you could climb at least a few grades harder than 12a just with better movement.

Since you have the money, hiring a coach to rewire your movement sounds like a good idea. Onsight mileage might help, but I think there are big gaps in your toolbox that need to be addressed semi-systematically. Without a coach I'd probably pick one technical issue at a time, let's say general body tension. Whenever you're climbing focus on making the moves with proper tension. If you can't maintain that focus on your gym projects (it's hard to pay attention to technique and try to send at your limit simultaneously) then go down in difficulty until you can. Once you're consistently executing hard moves with proper tension repeat the process for the next issue.

I train and coach people in your situation all the time. There are definitely strategies to get past the place you’re in.

Happy to chat specifics whenever. 

John RBwrote:

I climbed in the 90's, but focused on big walls and long trad outings, never on pushing grades.  It may have helped a tiny bit toughen my finger tendons, but I doubt it did much.  After a 20 yr break, I'm back at it, this time pushing grades as hard as I can.

Started in 2016, sticking to 5.9 and down for a year trying to get back into shape.  Sent 11a outside in 2018, then my first 12a in Aug 2019.  Sent 8 more 12a's in 2020, mostly in the Colorado front range, but one was on St George sandstone, another in Rifle.  I've tried a ton of 12b's, but they seem so much harder than 12a, and some 12a's still shut me down.  On the 9c strength test ( https://www.thecrag.com/en/climbing/virtual/route/4430259711 ) I score 21 pts, so I should be able to climb 8a (or 5.13b) with perfect technique, if you believe that sort of thing.  And yet 12b seems out of reach.

The only thing I do is climb: 3 times a week, mostly indoors over the Winter but now going outside since Spring is here.  80% of my gym time is projecting boulders; I just sent my first V7 in March, but my progression on plastic seems to have had zero impact on my ability to climb on a route outdoors, including on short bouldery routes.  Outside, I almost exclusively get on projects after doing some easier routes to warm-up.  I almost never go on onsight binges, so my movement repertoire is often much more limited than people who climb more variety.

I don't do anything you would call "training" like hangboarding, 4x4s, arcing, campusing, etc.  The exception is that I do work on stretching/mobility and meditate (for mental training).  Sometimes I get on a rope in the gym and take a bunch of falls, trying to get the fear of falling out of my head.

I have watched young people take up the sport and pass me in the 5 years since I've been back at it.  This doesn't really surprise me... I'm 59 and I'm just not going to progress like a 20 yr old.  But I'm hoping to still improve before the inevitable decline of age takes hold.  I climb with someone much better than I am, who onsights most of my projects and helps me work on movement skills, but I wonder if I could benefit from sport specific training.  I'm thinking about hiring a coach or trainer, but I don't know what to expect from it or if it's just futile at this point.  My partner thinks I have a ton of room to improve on technique, resting, breathing, but when I can't do a 5.12 crux 3 moves off the ground I feel like it's something else. :)

Anyway, I'd love to hear from others who've felt stymied in their progression and what they did to break through.  I'm interested in your stories regardless of age, though obviously someone older will relate more to what I'm saying above. 

Thanks for sharing.  I also climbed in the 90s and took ~25 years off, so I am psych to hear about you sending 12s and feeling like you can still improve at 59!

I am no expert but I have read everything extensively on training master athletes(not just climbing) and one theme that hasn't been mentioned yet - Once we hit our 50s strength and muscle loss is a given unless we do some regular strength training.  I believe it is important to play the long game and hit the weights 2-3 days a week in the off-season, and maybe 1-2 days a week in-season.

I would love to hear an update sometime down the road about your progress with some coaching :)

John RBwrote:

I don't do anything you would call "training" like hangboarding, 4x4s, arcing, campusing, etc.

This indicates to me that you could make really big progress really quickly if you identify your weakness and start training it. People who train a lot still have weaknesses, but if they have a weakness and train to address that weakness often, then that means they've really hit a difficult plateau. But if your weakness is something you haven't trained... then your progress once you start training it will likely be very rapid.

David Kwrote:

This indicates to me that you could make really big progress really quickly if you identify your weakness and start training it. People who train a lot still have weaknesses, but if they have a weakness and train to address that weakness often, then that means they've really hit a difficult plateau. But if your weakness is something you haven't trained... then your progress once you start training it will likely be very rapid.

I have a hard time knowing for sure, but I am starting to become convinced that my technique, movement, footwork are pretty bad and could really use some work.  I think part of this is due to projecting too much (and thereby limiting myself to the usual variety of movement that someone would normally encounter over the same 3 year period I've been climbing "seriously").  I get a variety in the gym, but gym climbing is nearly useless for developing footwork outside.

Example: I was on a 12a Friday where I just could NOT do the crux: a match on a 4mm edge (with big feet), then a leftward traverse to a nice 10mm edge.  My partner told me to sink my hips low under the match, move left, then rise back up to get the 10mm.  Doing this, the move became almost trivial, but I would never have thought of it myself.  And yet for him, he didn't even have to "think".  He just did it that way.