What is the most average crag?

Little Cottonwood Canyon. A few good cracks and a lifetime of shitty slabs. 

I think new jack city fits the bill. Significant enough it has its own guidebook. A ton of routes in the middle grade range. Some fun. Some steep. Some easier. Would be stoked to have as a local crag and worth stopping by if you’re driving through. But very average. 

Jack’s Canyon in Arizona is a strong average climbing area. Bonus points if the crew a site over scopes their rifle while everybody else is eating breakfast.

Duncan's Ridge Ft Collins. Almost all the routes are the same moves. 

All the Horseshoe Canyon talk has me nostalgic for the old days there pre reel-rock. My buddy and I were the only trad group the first year of Horseshoe Hell. They didnt even have a trad category. Was fun watching the sport weenies screaming at their partners and having full meltdowns around 3:00 am. Some friendships didnt last that first year.  

Leda just outside Chattanooga. Nothing great, nothing horrible and a moderate number of routes right in the moderate band of grades https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105888074/leda

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Naw. It has one of the most iconic photographed routes in the united states, I think it has the most easily viewed 15a in the country, and has a hard open project people actually try. 

I actually agree with Trevstar here. Overrated maybe, but argument is not average at all. 

If you filter all of mountain project by route stars and single pitch, often at least one rumney route  will make the top 50 by grade (at least for 5.11a-12b). The only crags that come up more regularly are Indian Creek, the red, and the new. 

Climbing is not solely, nor, 100% based on MP so I’m not sure this is the best marker. 

For the Colorado front range people, is clear creek better than boulder canyon?

For what? 

wall st, moab

if this crag was located anywhere with a decent approach, it would see 90% less traffic because the climbs arent that good... its more of a novelty crag...

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

For what? 

Overhanging jug fests?

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Overhanging jug fests?

 Neither. CCC is going to have more though. 

A vote for clear creek canyon.  A lot of single pitch crags that are ok.  You climb at a crag once, it's OK, and never go back to that crag.  There are a few that are worth returning to, but only a handful.

Wall Street, agreed. I would say El Rito in NM also. It's a lot of fun but really, it's just the novelty conglomerate we have in NM. I would have to say basalt in general in NM. It's our resource but it's only so good.

Am I allowed to say all of Colorado sport climbing? 

Go Back to Super Topowrote:

Am I allowed to say all of Colorado sport climbing? 

As long as you don't include Rifle. Are there valid complaints that you can have about Rifle? Definitely, but I don't think it can be considered average.

Creed Archibaldwrote:

Little Cottonwood Canyon. A few good cracks and a lifetime of shitty slabs. 

The bouldering I’d say is above average.

Zachary Ottwrote:

As long as you don't include Rifle. Are there valid complaints that you can have about Rifle? Definitely, but I don't think it can be considered average.

Rifle is most definitely not average. It has its pros and cons, and its not for everyone. Its a much above average crag for a climber seeking pumpy 5.12-5.14.  Its is a much below average crag for a 5.7-5.9 climber. I don't think you can just mix these two together and declare an overall average though.

More generally, there are some other areas here that have some strong pluses and strong minuses. I don't think that these necessarily cancel each other out. Consider Vantages. Pluses are a fairly large quantity of routes, good weather, dramatic environment. Minuses are trash rock quality and often uninteresting movement. I guess that overall these combine to make it an average-ish quanlity area. But its not the ultimate average crag we're seeking on this thread.

The theoretical "most average" crag would be average in every way. Average rock quality, average route quantity, average movement quality, etc... It would be 3 stars out of 5 on each element of scoring.  Rather than an area that is 5 stars in some ways and 1 star in others; that is more of a "flawed diamond" than an average crag.

JCMwrote:

The area that came to mind for me: Bolton, VT.

It's a decent climbing area, but nothing amazing. The rock is good enough, but not the best. Its most known for single pitch sport climbing, but also offers trad, bouldering, and even some ice in the winter. The setting is nice enough but not the most spectacular (except during fall colors). There are some decently long single pitches, and a couple short multipitches, but nothing especially tall. Some approaches are short, others are longer. It would be a nice home crag if you lived nearby, but there's nothing calling climbers to travel from far away to visit. It is just...a crag. An average crag. 

But is is the most average crag? What other places would qualify for this list?

I don't think the average crag has the variety of routes that Bolton does. It may not be a destination crag, but it does have some high quality routes that merit a stop for the travelling climber (The Thorn, some steep hard sport on 82). It also has some some multipitch on the dome, boulders, and ice climbing too. If every 'average' crag provided opportunities in all seasons, that would be pretty cool. An average crag IMO is less likely to have any classic routes, not much scenery to speak of, and without the variety. I don't want to throw names out an insult developer's efforts, but I think Dunmore or Deer Leap in VT are much closer to average (in VT) than a convenient spot with some high quality routes.

petzl logicwrote:

I don't think the average crag has the variety of routes that Bolton does. It may not be a destination crag, but it does have some high quality routes that merit a stop for the travelling climber (The Thorn, some steep hard sport on 82). It also has some some multipitch on the dome, boulders, and ice climbing too. If every 'average' crag provided opportunities in all seasons, that would be pretty cool. An average crag IMO is less likely to have any classic routes, not much scenery to speak of, and without the variety. I don't want to throw names out an insult developer's efforts, but I think Dunmore or Deer Leap in VT are much closer to average (in VT) than a convenient spot with some high quality routes.

This calls back a topic discussed a bit earlier in the thread - how good is the average crag? In my mind the average crag is actually pretty good - a respectable 3 stars out of 5. The way I think about it, there a a whole bunch of 1 and 2 star crags out there, so the median quality crag is probably 2 stars out of 5. But the average gets pulled up by the handful of best areas. It only takes one Tuolumne to balance out a couple dozen chossy Bay Area crags. And so the average between the finest Sierra granite and the worst Bay Area choss - is actually pretty good.

So I guess my thought is that average =/= mediocre. There's enough mind-blowingly good climbing out there that the average crag is still good. How do others see this?

3 stars out of 5 is probably about right for Bolton? Whereas Dunmore is more like a 1-star crag and Deer Leap is a 2-star crag? I've climbed at all these places, but its been 12+ years, so memory is fuzzy. What do you think?

I will acknowledge though that Bolton is unusually well-rounded between the various disciplines, so perhaps that disqualifies it from being the "most average"?

Go Back to Super Topowrote:

Am I allowed to say all of Colorado sport climbing? 

No. Despite the crowds, Shelf Road has a ton of really fun routes. Devils Head is the best granite sport climbing area on the planet. Rifle has been discussed above. 

And that doesn't even touch the unrealized potential of Little Devil.

Beta Slavewrote:

... Devils Head is the best granite sport climbing area on the planet. ... 

As someone who really likes Devil's Head, this an absolutely outrageous statement. Maybe it's satire and I'm missing it?

^^^ There was a whole thread about this a while back (limited to North America). Devil's Head was not number 1, but came in surprisingly high after much debate.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/121551521/the-best-granite-sport-crags-in-north-america

Perhaps Staunton is a closer representative of the "average crag"?