Full length rappels with Accessory Cord and Single Ropes

Philip Magistrowrote:

Also, a Beal Opera 8.5 70m plus Edelrid rapline is 350g lighter than a pair of Sterling Photon 7.8 halfs.  

Some folks will make the argument that you can belay two seconds on the halfs.  True.  But honestly I've taken mostly to using skinny single rated ropes if climbing anything hard in a team of three, and accept the weight penalty.  Two Beal Operas feels way better to me in a team of three.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the ultimate weight saver the beal escaper.  I expiremented quite a bit with it last season, and have been pretty pleased with it.

Tim Hwrote:

Looking at it from a pure ice climbing situation only; just curious if that is even an option or is just inviting trouble and not worth the weight savings and/or rope mgmt.
Do you have real world experience with these lines, all caps Matt? Examples of where these perform best from your view? Ice? Alpine? Glacier? 

No. Having never ice climbed, I would still rule it out. I don't think one needs to have used one to know its a bad idea. Why would you want to follow someone on a single, 6mm line? I sure wouldn't, unless there are two - twins/doubles. Also the follower is swinging a sharp object in the vicinity of said 6mm lifeline. 

Yes there are times when those lines could be useful, but your specific question of using a 6mm rap line as a rope for a follower on ice - f&ck no.

And another consideration in what to buy/bring. This is the ice forum. (most) Dedicated rap lines are dry treated, and AFAIK, accessory cord is not.

Mikey Schaeferwrote:

I think for most use cases the aramid rap line probably isn’t worth the money.  You can get the esprit or maxim from anywhere between $100 to $150 and they hold up extremely well and are comparably priced to 7mm accessory cord.  Having owned numerous esprit lines I’m confident in saying they are more than adequate for 99% of climbers and uses out there.  The only time I’d probably want something more burly is while hauling multi day alpine packs on sharp rock.  That has a tendency to trash small ropes.  But for use as a rappel rope the non aramid ropes are just fine on any terrain.

Agreed on the esprit.  It's all nylon but the sheath construction is burly as hell specifically to deal with abrasion and prevent tangles.  It's a far cry from 6mm or 7mm accessory cord.

The Maxim 7mm is great. I use it as a tag line when using a biner block on the main 60m. I have found that a figure eight follow through works better to join the two ropes than a flat overhand given the stiffness of the Maxim. For this application I could go to a smaller tag/pull line.

I do also use 50m Blue Water Titan Cord as an escape rope for soloing certain routes. At 19g/m it is one of the lightest options around.

It would make an excellent pull cord for ice/alpine if Blue Water would address the market need and make it in a 65m length. 

Although listed as a 5mm rope it actual measures 5.5mm.

Why they don't offer this cord in standard sizes is a mystery to me.

I spoke to Esprit regarding their rope and the latest prices are US$135 /60 m, US$146.25 /65m, US$157.50 /70m... hard to decide between this and the Maxim with the lower price 

I was researching all the options in this thread and came upon this very recent and informative "nugget" from Colin Haley. Sold me on the new Petzl Pur (20g/m!), although it is significantly more expensive than the Esprit or Maxim lines. A coordinated purchase of a 200m would save a bit for three people--on Backcountry a 65m is $240, while a 200m is $650==>217 each. Kind of tempting though to buy a 200m and get a 100m for Heaps, a 70m for normal use, and a 30m for glacier travel...

https://www.colinhaley.com/nugget-1-the-petzl-purline/

As an FYI, the Esprit 6mm 65m is US$146.25 plus shipping $27 for a total of $173.25, but you have to email the company and schedule payment over the phone. That is a big premium over the Maxim, which only comes in 60m, 70m, and 80m lengths. So if you want the Maxim in 65m you have to chop the 70m. Kind of odd they don't offer this in a 65m version. The 70m goes for $120, so still much cheaper given the hit on CAD shipping for the Esprit. There will be a slight weight advantage with the Esprit of around 4g/m if my memory is correct, so about 260g for 65m, apples to apples.

Bringing this one back being it is still ice season, does anyone have any experience with the Black Diamond 6mm static cord for the above listed uses? Pros, cons? Pretty good price, but curious about quality, feel, ease of use. 

https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/product/6-0-static-accessory-cord-65m/

Tim Hwrote:

Looking at it from a pure ice climbing situation only; just curious if that is even an option or is just inviting trouble and not worth the weight savings and/or rope mgmt.
Do you have real world experience with these lines, all caps Matt? Examples of where these perform best from your view? Ice? Alpine? Glacier? 

TR-ing on ultra-static 6mm rap cord is not a great idea. I feel like this is one of those “if you have to ask” situations..

Edit: I’m sure some alpine/big wall ultra-hardo will come on here and extol the virtues of micro-trax on a fixed 6 mil as standard technique… 

Sorta aimed at Jeremy/Mikey, anyone have experience with *both* the maxim and esprit? The maxim website indicates it's a 7mm, whereas the esprit is a 6mm, which is a bit more appealing. I think someone said that the maxim was a copy, but maybe just meant very similar?

More asking out of curiosity, as I already ordered an esprit (mikey, tell SJ thanks for the suggestion), so I'm kinda stuck at this point. I'll try to revive this thread in a month or two when I've put a few raps into the Esprit.

I’ve only used the Maxim once or twice and can’t say I could really tell the difference between the two.  I didn’t measure the weight or gm/m.

And yes it is my understanding that the Maxim is a direct copy.  The Esprit rope was given to Maxim and someone pretty much said make this and they did.  That is one of the reasons I continue to recommend the Esprit rope.  They are a small manufacturer and I think it was/is kinda lame for Maxim to just rip off a product and make no attempt to approve upon it.  Edelrids rap line was attempt at making an improved rope and depending your use case maybe they did.  I still prefer the Esprit bit at least Edelrid was trying!

To use the pull line with a biner block I assume it would have to be a Naked thread? Without a ring or quick link wouldn’t the biner block flip over the cord if not using a vthread since there isn’t anything to block it? 

I’ve only used this method for fixed rap routes 

Hi folks, 

I posted about some of these issues here: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/121808407/fun-and-games-with-grigri-single-ropes-and-tag-lines-for-ice-climbing#ForumMessage-121822094

Some quick points:

1-Rapping with a device like Reverso or ATC, on a single rope with a thin tag line, in the right conditions, you can have crazy, fast, tag line slippage, even when using a prussik back up.  Tie knots in the end of the ropes, tie the rope to you, pre-rig your partner on rappel to fix the lines, have your partner give you a fireman belay...but be aware that those thin lines can slip through your device fast.  

2-Rapping with a device like a Gri Gri, on a single rope with a thin tag line, using a carabiner block of some kind, it's definitely a concern than the blocking knot can get sucked back through the anchor, rappel rings, V-thread cord, and so on.  To mitigate this, tie the blocking knot in the single rope, not in the tag line.  A good knot for the blocking carabiner seems to be a clove hitch--it's less prone to getting sucked into the anchor compared to an overhand, alpine butterfly, and so forth. 

3-The Petzl Pur lines are nice for what they are, the Esprit line sounds great, and I think there's a place for the Edelrid rap line with cut resistance and a dynamic reserve.  

The rope quiver grows....

My biggest issue has been wind. My 6mm Mamute  gets super tangled in windy conditions. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

My biggest issue has been wind. My 6mm Mamute  gets super tangled in windy conditions. 

at some point, too much wind may not be manageable but I would argue that mild/moderate wind calls for coiling one of the ropes (typically the one that is being threaded, so that the second rope just whips on down, and then the threaded rope isn't able to interact/tangle with the second rope. This certainly adds about 1-1.5min to each rap, but often saves me several minutes of *not* dealing with a fustercluck of tangles, so it's worth it, IMO.

I have been using the 6mm tag for descending while ice soloing. I have had some pretty hopeless tangles just getting the thing out of the pack and deployed.  had this happen several times.

@ Nick--I think the stiffer rap line options are generally less tangly--what are you using?  Hopw about keeping it neatly stacked in a small bag or pack as you descend?

Using  Mamut.  

Worst case scenario you have lead backup to retrieve a stuck rope. Therefore, wouldn't the Edelrid be superior to anything else due to it's dynamic reserve?

Serious question, because i am in a similar situation. i have a few big ridgeline traverses coming up this summer and was planning on solo while using this rope as a rap, but the dynamic reserve is a  nice 'just in case' if i encounter something more than i am willing to do un-roped.

jcs