Rappelling without extension

Say, how many of you noticed that OP has absolutely no idea how to do extended rappels despite claiming intimate knowledge of the multiple nodes of failure in such systems?

WAIT YOU CAN EXTEND A RAPPEL?

Brett Merlinwrote:

I'm not a fan of the autoblock on the leg loop in any configuration. I think it is very possible to lift your leg high enough to have the autoblock hit the rappel device to defeat it.

LOL!  Let's suppose you could make this happen (which I seriously doubt) what do you think would transpire?  You think you would suddenly start sliding down the rope in a way that you couldn't control?  More likely, the autoblock would simply re-catch when you move your leg. Same with flipping upside down (which isn't a thing either, other than wearing a huge pack - a scenario that may or may not call for extension). For me, the value of being able to easily weight raps when the anchor is over an edge, far outweighs any potential value of extending as a standard practice. Despite all the "experts" saying that extension is about safety, it's really about convenience for guides (who are the group who invented this narrative).

JFC, are you guys still up on that route trying to figure out how to rap??!? The rest of us already hiked out, had dinner, drank six beers, and passed out in the campfire.

Rasputin NLNwrote:

Why the hell aren't harnesses manufactured with a full-strength loop for a carabiner, sewn onto the legs loops for the purpose of attaching a third hand? If I use a third hand I usually extend my rappel and put the friction hitch on my belay loop. If there was a third-hand carabiner loop on the leg loop I would stop extending the device. Only takes a few moments to extend using a sling, but still it would be  a big convenience, especially for short rappels.

The new Misty Mountain Cadillac 2022 harness leg loops will have this. I'm pasting below from a Product Update doc Misty Mountain sent me, after I emailed them a bunch of questions re. the Cadillac "sky is falling thread" thread here on Mtn. Proj (now locked):

=================

The redesigned Cadillac Series has a slimmed down look with reduced weight achieved through the use of Trelleborg Tactwear- a polymer-coated cordura composite. This has been accomplished without jeopardizing the comfort and support the Cadillac is known for. Through new assembly methods we have incorporated a full- strength haul loop into the 1” tubular nylon waist webbing. One continuous strand of tubular nylon webbing is also used for both leg loops. The leg loops have 2 full strength auto-block loops built into the continuous strand to provide a backup when rappelling or storing of carabiners while completing task in between belays.......

================= 

And for the 2022 Sonic:

....The Sonic features an autoblock loop (third-hand) integrated into the rise of the leg loops, allowing the climber to quickly backup their rappel.....

Terry Ewrote:

The new Misty Mountain Cadillac 2022 harness leg loops will have this. I'm pasting below from a Product Update doc Misty Mountain sent me, after I emailed them a bunch of questions re. the Cadillac "sky is falling thread" thread here on Mtn. Proj (now locked):

=================

The redesigned Cadillac Series has a slimmed down look with reduced weight achieved through the use of Trelleborg Tactwear- a polymer-coated cordura composite. This has been accomplished without jeopardizing the comfort and support the Cadillac is known for. Through new assembly methods we have incorporated a full- strength haul loop into the 1” tubular nylon waist webbing. One continuous strand of tubular nylon webbing is also used for both leg loops. The leg loops have 2 full strength auto-block loops built into the continuous strand to provide a backup when rappelling or storing of carabiners while completing task in between belays.......

================= 

And for the 2022 Sonic:

....The Sonic features an autoblock loop (third-hand) integrated into the rise of the leg loops, allowing the climber to quickly backup their rappel.....

This harness design does not negate the failure mode of the leg loop.  I don't know why you'd need an extra loop when you can clip through the leg loop.

Eric Mosswrote:

This harness design does not negate the failure mode of the leg loop.  I don't know why you'd need an extra loop when you can clip through the leg loop.

They positioned the extra loop so that the the biner can be further away from the belay loop than just clipping the leg loop would accomplish:

Yes you still have to be mindful of potential failure modes and tied your third had length accordingly, but this gives you some extra working room to do that.

thats about where my duct tape special lives. 

Need some crossing strap’s from leg loop to leg loop so the third hand attachment can’t rotate inward.  Just say no to stemming.  Something similar to fix the waist belt, maybe crossing the chest and up around the shoulders?   Just kidding.

Reminds of once finishing a long route, taking off my harness and finding three non-lockers on the back of my right leg loop.  Sitting at belay  ledges, I’d “temporarily” clip a loose one to my leg loop, and it would slip around out of sight and forgotten while I was doing something else.

I don't get the elastic straps in the back of the leg loops. almost all harnesses have them . they just stretch and put all the weight on the waist  belt crushing your kidneys.  they compensate by adding more padding and weight to the waist belt but it still hurts.  I use the bod harness which has wide nylon straps in the back instead of skinny stretchy shit. result is a diaper seat that actually supports your weight .  

Nick, if your waist belt digs into your kidneys when hanging, that means that the relationship between your waist loop and leg loops is too large (known as "the rise").  If that dimension is too small, you will have too much weight on the leg loops and tend to invert.  I think getting this right is the most critical step in selecting a harness make and size.  I actually use a Metolius harness with an adjustable rise, so that if I am dissatisfied with the rise after using the harness for a while, I can change it.

For this reason the stretchy leg loops are not designed to support your weight.  They should be adjusted to hold the leg loops high enough while climbing and walking around, and are stretchy to give you a little extra comfort and mobility.

last harness I had with streatchies was a  mammut.  I gave it to someone I was mentoring and  went back to the BD Bod with its diaper  straps. Its almost like a belay seat and even though it has  very little waist padding its comfortable when you are doing this stuff. 

Eric Mosswrote:

Brett, 

I do carry a locking draw these days, thanks to this board.  I found out that my camp orbit lockers were actually lighter than my bd positron non-lockers, so that was a no-brainer to swap (plus the older positrons have weak springs and have frozen open on me).  However, I don't want to rap on a biner with such a steep angle and a smaller surface than a belay biner.  Maybe I'm overlooking some option here.  How do you use the locking draw?

Hey Eric,

If you like the Orbit Lock, you should check out the new Photon Lock. It is even lighter! I typically use a locker draw with a Photon Lock on one side to clip to my belay loop and a Nimbus Lock on the other to use with my rappel device. I like to keep a nice round stock carabiner anytime the rope is moving through it. My locker draw has a 11cm dogbone. That creates enough separation from my autoblock off my belay loop.  A light D carabiner will bind up and create too much friction if used as the rope bearing carabiner. In general, I like to avoid knotting dyneema runners when I ice climb because they can be a pain to undo. Hope this makes some sense and helps a bit!

rgoldwrote:

One of the dangers associated with the leg loop backup is what happens if the rappeller's body goes horizontal (as can happen when stretching to reach in to gear on an overhang or sideways to gear off the rappel line, or completely inverts because of a slip and maybe a pack.  In these cases, what looked like a safe distance between knot and device can turn out to be inadequate.  Such body positions are of course uncommon, which also means that it is possible to use such a system successfully for years without recognizing a potential weakness.  So I'd say get a very good belay and see what happens with your body in one of these uncommon positions.  If your set-up releases, then you have to decide how likely it is that you'll ever need the system to function in such cases.

The depicted configuration looks to me like a pain for multiple rappels---it looks as if it has to be untied and retired for each rappel.

I’ve been resisting extending the rap for years, mostly because having my atc away from my belay loop makes me very uneasy. Yes, I’m aware that’s not logical if it’s extended properly.

Anyway, I tried your suggestion above and my set up failed. My harness has a loop on the leg loop similar to the misty mountain and my cord is very short, so I wrongly assumed I’d be fine. To add to it, on the way down my backup cord (which was on my front gear loop for some reason) swung forward, was sucked in between the two strands of rope and up into my autoblock which locked up. I had to unweight the rope to free myself.

In an MP first, my mind has been changed. I’ll be extending my rap from now on. Thanks rgold!

I woke up this morning thinking about the misty mountain harness. Putting the loop off to the side would increase the distance from the belay device and make it harder but not impossible to fail. However, it still doesn't entice me because I like the rope between my legs and not off to the side.

I think I might try using my butt cheeks as a third hand, because in the event of a fall they will only grab the rope tighter. 

Here's a video of the tie in point helical knot third hand backup in action.  I don't use that special hand technique on the prusik like the required reading says.  Maybe I need to change that, but for now I just keep both a hand on the rope below the device.  Please, no bully.

https://youtu.be/FTAyjdiP0t0

Eric Mosswrote:

I woke up this morning thinking about the misty mountain harness. Putting the loop off to the side would increase the distance from the belay device and make it harder but not impossible to fail. However, it still doesn't entice me because I like the rope between my legs and not off to the side.

I think I might try using my butt cheeks as a third hand, because in the event of a fall they will only grab the rope tighter. 

Here's a video of the tie in point helical knot third hand backup in action.  I don't use that special hand technique on the prusik like the required reading says.  Maybe I need to change that, but for now I just keep both a hand on the rope below the device.  Please, no bully.

https://youtu.be/FTAyjdiP0t0

No bully:

This saves time for you over a traditional rap setup? 

T Legowrote:

No bully:

This saves time for you over a traditional rap setup? 

Over extension, yes.  Over leg loop, no.

Edit: reviewing video footage it took me 38 seconds from gear loop to install with leg loop.  47 seconds from gear loop to install with tie in points.  That extra 9 seconds of install time could pay off on the descent.  

Eric Mosswrote:

Good point, how about this?

This can work, but I do see some caveats:
1) The fine-tuning required is obviously not for everyone.
2) Consider if the loop tuned for your 10mm would still work on a partner's 8.5 (or a different harness)
3) Need a plan B for rappelling on 1 strand (IMO re-tuning the loop length in the field would be silly)
4) Sometimes there's too much friction and you need to pull the brake strand away from your body to get moving - harder with this method
5) Clipping/unclipping the 2 tie-in loops (instead of 1 belay loop) is slow and awkward
6) Whereas in a normal 3rd hand setup non-lockers are grudgingly tolerated, with this method you probably do need a locker

The extra seconds in dealing with 5 & 6 may seem insignificant, but the slower and more awkward a 3rd hand system is, the more I tend to skip it and rappel w/o backup (YMMV). My preferred solution to the extension problem is to use a short extension.

Eric Mosswrote:

That extra 9 seconds of install time could pay off on the descent.  

No offense but what are you talking about lmao

You should team up w the ropex guys

You could save a lot more time on descent by just letting yourself whip to the end of the rope each rap. Why are we bothering with a backup at all, Eric?