Gyms double wrapping the top rope roller

Caroline Janellewrote:

I’m late in this thread but I also really don’t like when gyms double wrap the “top rope” rope.

My personal reasons:

1) It’s bad for fall practice.
 

You do "fall practice" on a TR system? Like, taking 4 inch falls to get used to the massive drop? 

ADAM GRANTwrote:

Has anyone else seen people drop 30’ to the deck at the gym? Ever notice when it is double wrapped they get up and walk away?  I wonder how much speed the double wrap scrubs on the way down?  Maybe the “How not to high line” guy can do a test when he gets his drop tower built.  Ya know just for fun.  Any super smart math people have any formulas they could apply to this? 

Ok I'm going to blow myself up here,  but I actually dropped a partner at Mesa Rim. My mentor back then and I were kind of lax about safety checks (complacency). As he was tying in, a friend walks by and they start chit chatting. Next thing I know he asks if he is on belay and I didn't think about it, I had seen him tying in, but he didn't finish his follow through. 

His feet were over 20ft off the deck when he fell. I thought the rope snapped because it made such a loud noise when it whipped around the bar at the top. Also, this guy is huge, 6'4" and 240lbs. When he hit the deck, flat on his back, the entire gym stopped and half the gym came running over.

He was fine, just had the wind knocked out of him and a little shaken up. We continued to climb/adventure together until he got hit by a car on his bike and could no longer climb due to his injuries, years later. 

I never thought about the double wrap until now but I wonder if it slowed him down? It all happened so fast. I've thought about the incident a lot and I turned into a total safety check weeny afterwards. Sometimes when I'm climbing with someone and ask to see their knot, and they give me that "I'm not an idiot" look. I tell them "hey I actually dropped someone to the deck before because they didn't finish their knot, let me see it" 

They usually give me a look back like they can't tell if I'm joking or not. 

Mesa Rim is the gym I've top roped at the most, but I haven't been there in years. Now I go to a bouldering only gym and can't remember the last time I climbed on a rope at a gym,  let alone whether they double wrapped or not, nor if it made a big difference for me. 

lukewrote:

Hi everyone, I’m looking for good arguments and info that I can present to the corporate heads of our local gym to help reverse their decision to double wrap their top ropes on the top anchor cylinder. 

You make it sound like a bunch of pinstriped suit wearing, cigar smoking guys are sitting around a conference table making these decisions.  

Andrew Ricewrote:

You do "fall practice" on a TR system? Like, taking 4 inch falls to get used to the massive drop? 

If you don't practice a skill, how can you get better at it?

Patrick Lwrote:

Ok I'm going to blow myself up here,  but I actually dropped a partner at Mesa Rim. My mentor back then and I were kind of lax about safety checks (complacency). As he was tying in, a friend walks by and they start chit chatting. Next thing I know he asks if he is on belay and I didn't think about it, I had seen him tying in, but he didn't finish his follow through. 

His feet were over 20ft off the deck when he fell. I thought the rope snapped because it made such a loud noise when it whipped around the bar at the top. Also, this guy is huge, 6'4" and 240lbs. When he hit the deck, flat on his back, the entire gym stopped and half the gym came running over.

He was fine, just had the wind knocked out of him and a little shaken up. We continued to climb/adventure together until he got hit by a car on his bike and could no longer climb due to his injuries, years later. 

I never thought about the double wrap until now but I wonder if it slowed him down? It all happened so fast. I've thought about the incident a lot and I turned into a total safety check weeny afterwards. Sometimes when I'm climbing with someone and ask to see their knot, and they give me that "I'm not an idiot" look. I tell them "hey I actually dropped someone to the deck before because they didn't finish their knot, let me see it" 

They usually give me a look back like they can't tell if I'm joking or not. 

Mesa Rim is the gym I've top roped at the most, but I haven't been there in years. Now I go to a bouldering only gym and can't remember the last time I climbed on a rope at a gym,  let alone whether they double wrapped or not, nor if it made a big difference for me. 

maybe i am misunderstanding but if his not wasn’t tied, why would the wrap change his fall speed? there should have been a dangling lead end 20’ up, right?

petzl logicwrote:

maybe i am misunderstanding but if his not wasn’t tied, why would the wrap change his fall speed? there should have been a dangling lead end 20’ up, right?

Maybe the knot held for a moment and created tension that snapped the rope up after the knot released.

And why would Patrick L feel like he dropped his partner if the partner fell because of an incompletely tied knot?

Many mysteries here...

Mark E Dixonwrote:

And why would Patrick L feel like he dropped his partner if the partner fell because of an incompletely tied knot?

Many mysteries here...

I guess I shouldn't say dropped, as i didn't let go of the rope or anything, just that this was my fault for not checking his knot but still saying on belay. I think. It was a long time ago.

And yeah to that reply above, I assumed the knot was partially followed through because of the loud cracking of a whip noise it made, but I'm no physicist.  But at the time I did think that it held for a second, but now I'm not sure. 

well it just doesn’t sound like a double wrap affected your Lynn Hill incident. 

I just encountered this situation for the very first time last night. Mesa Rim in Reno was closed, so I met a buddy at North Peak gym. My impression is that just draping the rope over a large diameter polished metal cylinder is extremely dangerous. There is close to zero friction.

This was months ago but stone summit in kennesaw didn’t wrap their ropes on TR. saw a child belaying an adult, the adult missed a hold and the child went flying. Easy solution was to clip the child with a sandbag but…

Hmmm. I know of a situation where a coach at a gym took a junior climber off belay while still on the wall and walked away. I'm guessing the double wrap might have saved that kid's life. 

soft cruxwrote:

If you don't practice a skill, how can you get better at it?

Please remind me what the skill is that you're practicing? 

When I worked in a gym we double wrapped during the summer and during the winter (when more moisture in the air) we would convert to single wrapped.

I agree it is a PITA.  That's why I've not top roped anything in any gym since everyone collectively decided this was a great idea like 6 or 7 years ago.  That fixed the problem for me.

Conghui Songwrote:

Has anyone else seen people drop 30’ to the deck at the gym? Ever notice when it is double wrapped they get up and walk away?  I wonder how much speed the double wrap scrubs on the way down?  Maybe the “How not to high line” guy can do a test when he gets his drop tower built.  Ya know just for fun.  Any super smart math people have any formulas they could apply to this?

A 1/2 inch rope wrapped around a smooth barrel device once will receive about 225 pounds of relief for the belayer. Someone could theoretically belay a 300 pound man with the “feeling” that they are belaying someone who only weighs 75 pounds 

a gym rope would probably be somewhere around 175-200 pounds of resistance, and since you said it is 1 1/2 wraps, then it can theoretically help you belay successfully with around a 300 pound difference without difficultly to lower someone. 

If the rope goes over itself on the barrel, it will act as a brake and clog. When you have too much friction, and once you get a lower started, you want to make sure that you don’t stop letting the person down. Pretty much drop their ass but keep your hand on the rope; they won’t go down quickly unless they are heavy set. 

I have no clue how having the belay device attached to you will change things. Hopefully you don’t go flying into the air

I got dropped from about 30' from a double wrapped TR and walked away.

After that I quit moaning about the setup.  And never really trusted that belayer again...

Just like hooking up with someone who has been in the dating scene a bit too much, double wrapping it is a good technique in the gym.

M Mwrote:

Just like hooking up with someone who has been in the dating scene a bit too much, double wrapping it is a good technique in the gym.

Wondered who was going there… thanks M. LMAO. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

You do "fall practice" on a TR system? Like, taking 4 inch falls to get used to the massive drop? 

I’m pretty surprise I need to specify this: but yeah, when the rope is not doubled at the top, and there is some loose, and the rope is elastic, you can take some falls more than 1m. Highly suggest instead of hating on MP to boost your ego