Gyms double wrapping the top rope roller

lukewrote:

manufacturers do not recommend rope on rope friction for durability 

but what about for pleasure??? ropes need love too.....

Hi Luke,

I've been in the industry a long time.  Let me add my perspective.

lukewrote:

My wife has a back injury, she can belay fine but in this system she has to haul the rope down to take slack and she tapped out after one climb. 

It's harder to pull rope through with a double-wrapped anchor, but if it's exhausting your wife after one climb, it's likely an issue of the rope that is being used.  It shouldn't feel that much harder.  I used Edelrid Tower Lite 10.0mm and this is not an issue.

I’m also getting my 4yo daughter crusher into climbing and it’s impossible to give her an assist through hard moves by pulling her up a bit, lowering her 44lbs off the climb actually required pulling out slack and whipping it towards the anchor in order to free up the ropes so she’d descend.

This is a legitimate annoyance of this setup.  The silver lining is that it tends to lead kids to picking routes within their ability level, and to develop a realistic understanding of what that is.  But you're right, it's hard for four-year-olds.

- the ropes can jamb up making taking slack quickly very difficult, making for a less safe experience for climbers, especially those that climb fast

Again, this hasn't been a problem anywhere I've climbed, all of which double-wrap the ropes, which leads me to suspect it's an issue of the ropes being used.  If the gym just transitioned from single to double, they're probably using the same gear that worked well for single and should try some other stuff.

- the increased friction makes for a less safe experience when climbing with younger/lighter climbers whose weight is negligibly negative against the friction

I can't see how this makes it less safe.  Yes, you have to feed rope to lower the lightest little climbers, but this can be done while controlling the brake strand.  Also, as soon as your child is 1/3 your weight, they will have zero issue at all belaying you!  That's the coolest part of double-wrapped ropes!  Massively different sized people can climb together.  I'm watching an 80-pound  kid belay his 200-pound father right now, which wouldn't have been possible with a single wrap.  Yes I should probably be working right now...

- rope wear is increased dramatically and rope manufacturers do not recommend rope on rope friction for durability 

While I wouldn't call it a dramatic increase, you're correct.  Rope on rope friction will wear a rope faster, but with 1/3 bodyweight as the maximum force, it won't cause unsafely rapid wear.  However, I don't think this is a valid argument against a gym's decision to use their own equipment how they wish to use it, and I wouldn't present it to them

- litigious California scaredy cat politics shouldn’t be a reason to make your gym lame.

Most gyms across the country double wrap their ropes.  It's not a California thing.

I'd encourage you to see if your gym can look into updating their ropes, since they're updating their rope system.  A double-wrapped rope SHOULD NOT be causing the problems you're speaking of, and the gym should fix that.  I think you've had a bad introduction to double-wrapped top ropes, and I hope you have a better experience in the future.  I also hope you utilize this (hopefully improved) system and have your little one start belaying their parents eventually!

As others have noted, it's hardly an uncommon practice. And it's designed to provide a bit of an "auto-belay" lower in the event that people are dropped by their belayer. Slows it down from a plummet to a reasonable fall.

And, yeah, you might have to push some rope to get your 4-year-old down. But if your wife is so weak or injured that she can't pull slack on a double wrapped rope then she's probably not in any condition to be belaying other people, anyway.

Leading is always a great option at Mesa Rim if you don't like their TR system. 

Seems like a standard practice in all gyms I've visited.  Doubt they will change it, but that is a bummer it makes it that much more difficult for your wife.  I agree that it makes for a harder transition to belaying outdoors when people are expecting to have that extra friction.   

MR has been using this system since they opened. The orientation of the rope makes a big difference. Make sure it's centered in the bar and that you are positioned to mimize rope rub and crossover at the bar.

PRRosewrote:

Try:

• "Saw" the rope before tying in so that it's laying flat around the bar and is not against the end plates.
• Don't stand in a position that allows the belay strand to cross over the wrapped rope or rub against the end plates.

Gym near me does the double wrap around what looks like a big pulley that only rotates in one direction. That one direction part adds friction to the descent and but not the ascent. That addition might help your wife out.

Between that friction, the stiff old ropes and the ATC at the bottom, it can be a bit of a challenge to lower anyone fast. Everyone manages, haven't seen any lightweight kids stranded at the top yet.

Sure it's not anywhere as nice to handle as a regular outdoor top rope, but the whole indoor climbing thing sucks. Having low indoor expectations leads to a happier life I think ;)

Pete Swrote:

Solution: climb outside. 

We don’t really want more people climbing outdoors. Let’s fix this problem and keep gym climbers happy. 

Wife needs to learn to belay better, the wrapped pipe is nice. Maybe its the old worn out 11mm gym rope that is the real problem?

 Gym climbing is awesome now with all these new fancy gyms, its even more fun than real rock now. Better setters too.

M Mwrote:

Wife needs to learn to belay better, the wrapped pipe is nice. Maybe its the old worn out 11mm gym rope that is the real problem?

 Gym climbing is awesome now with all these new fancy gyms, its even more fun than real rock now. Better setters too.

No, she does not. My gym does this, they swap out ropes very frequently, and it's still a PITA to pull slack. It varies from anchor to anchor, and, applying the suggestions on here? Even then, some of the anchors are still bad enough, it comes down to walking backward to pull slack, then pulling it through the device quickly (preattached Lifeguard) while walking forward. 

There's talk they are considering attaching grigris instead, maybe that helps, maybe not.

Whatever. I still like my gym, and support them. 

Best, H.

EDIT to add, the first bit above was said because that was kinda mean to the wife, even if it was joking (?).

The rest, well. No, the wrap is not so spiffy, imo, lol! If you were sarcastic, count me in.

First climbing trip Thursday!! :-)

Drew Neviuswrote:

I’m not a fan. I’ve nearly been dropped on a TR belay outside when someone who started in the gym (and climbed there plenty) lowered me and it was way faster than they were used to (because of the double wrapped tr pipes in the gym). It caught them off guard. Gyms are going to keep doing it though since it reduces their chance of accidents inside. Unfortunately it comes at the cost of lulling people into wrongly thinking that lots of time TR belaying in the gym translates to being able to safely give a simple TR belay outside

at my gym they allow dogs to run around while their owners climb to mimic the outdoor experience. they even use people’s backbacks to relieve themselves like they’re trees. but no one complains because the experience indoors should mirror the experience outdoors as closely as possible, which is why a few of us started bringing hammocks and bluetooth speakers. it’s so rad!

petzl logicwrote:

at my gym they allow dogs to run around while their owners climb to mimic the outdoor experience. they even use people’s backbacks to relieve themselves like they’re trees. but no one complains because the experience indoors should mirror the experience outdoors as closely as possible, which is why a few of us started bringing hammocks and bluetooth speakers. it’s so rad!

Okay, gym owners peeing on packs crosses the line.

whoah whoah whoah there it's the same sport right? next week i heard they're going to release three quarters of a billion mosquitos, gonna be epic.

Old lady Hwrote:

No, she does not. My gym does this, they swap out ropes very frequently, and it's still a PITA to pull slack. It varies from anchor to anchor, and, applying the suggestions on here? Even then, some of the anchors are still bad enough, it comes down to walking backward to pull slack, then pulling it through the device quickly (preattached Lifeguard) while walking forward. 

There's talk they are considering attaching grigris instead, maybe that helps, maybe not.

Whatever. I still like my gym, and support them. 

Best, H.

EDIT to add, the first bit above was said because that was kinda mean to the wife, even if it was joking (?).

The rest, well. No, the wrap is not so spiffy, imo, lol! If you were sarcastic, count me in.

First climbing trip Thursday!! :-)

why is walking back hard to do? That is the definition of a good belay, in and out when needed. Squats work too.

ADAM GRANTwrote:

Has anyone else seen people drop 30’ to the deck at the gym? Ever notice when it is double wrapped they get up and walk away?  I wonder how much speed the double wrap scrubs on the way down?  Maybe the “How not to high line” guy can do a test when he gets his drop tower built.  Ya know just for fun.  Any super smart math people have any formulas they could apply to this? 

I once saw someone lower a heavy climber (at least 250lbs) by holding the climber end only and the climber was descending very slowly. The belayer was probably 150lbs. I would say the double wrap definitely helped in that case. 

(I work for a company that builds ropes courses and the odd climbing wall)

The style of anchor that you've noted is in fact meant to be wrapped. Manufacturers that sell them straight up show them set up this way in any documentation. Just google image "climbing wall belay bar" and you will see almost every image shows it wrapped. As others have noted, the increased friction helps reduce risk of newer belayers lowering too quickly and allows for a lighter belayer to comfortably belay. 

Due to the large smooth surface on these anchors, there is VERY little friction in the system when set up without a wrap. I climbed at a gym once that was set up like this and would lift up my gf who is 30 pounds lighter than me every time I took the slightest fall. I would almost argue that climbing with this setup is intolerable for the climber and belayer. This isn't a problem when passing through two carabiners as the sharp bend in the rope creates a fair bit of friction.

I would be absolutely shocked if you have indeed climbed all over the world and never seen a belay bar set up properly. It is definitely more common for gyms to use carabiners or rings though. Perhaps that's what you meant.

If the rope is crossing over itself, give it a flick so there's no rope-on-rope friction like you noted. It really is a non-issue.

lukewrote:

- litigious California scaredy cat politics shouldn’t be a reason to make your gym lame. Focus. Ore on training good climbers than getting sued because someone doesn’t know how to belay properly.

More like gun-shy insurance policies that allow a gym to remain open shouldn't be a reason to make your gym lame.  Oh wait, the gym would not exist otherwise, so maybe that is a valid reason.

I climb at Sender One ant they use wrap the cylinder (it is a single wrap by the way, a double wrap would be 900 degrees.  I don't care for it, but it is what it is.  I guarantee there would be more accidents without the wrap.  When they set up for speed contests, the just go over the bar and there is basically no resistance.  If someone screwed up and didn't let go of the handle on the grigri (which is the entire reason the built the god awful grigri+), the climber would pretty much free fall to the deck.

Matt Himmelsteinwrote:

 they set up for speed contests, the just go over the bar and there is basically no resistance.  If someone screwed up and didn't let go of the handle on the grigri (which is the entire reason the built the god awful grigri+), the climber would pretty much free fall to the deck.

Saw that at S1, once, during a speed contest. 

Amy C wrote:

How are you belaying where taking in slack is an issue.....???

Just a reminder - OP's wife has difficult time taking in slack due to back issue, OP has problems lowering his kid - too much friction in the system

Just because you don't have an issue with something, does not mean it's impossible for this to be an issue.

My current gym, it is sometimes a fight to pull slack. I don't know what all contributes to it, but it simply is. That doesn't mean it's impossible, just....annoying.

At an earlier iteration of a gym here?

I once sat there, up top, waiting to be lowered. The belayer had the Cinch wide open....and still I sat there. I yelled at a friend to help on the belay end and we got it sorted, but that anchor station was often uncooperative. 

With a device preattached to the rope?

The friction wrap teaches bad belaying. No, gyms aren't obligated to teach squat toward climbing lead, or outside, but most do care, including my gym.

The university gym here, never did a friction wrap, and made everyone learn to belay with an ATC. It was considered part of teaching, not just a rec program.

Keeping it real, kept it safer, imo. But, a commercial gym? Has different clientele. It's important to have that foot traffic, of brand new people. 

So I just grumble, and make it work. They're the ones who mortgaged their houses to build "my" gym, after all.

Best, Helen

I’m late in this thread but I also really don’t like when gyms double wrap the “top rope” rope.

My personal reasons:

1) It’s bad for fall practice.
2) It’s bad for my back.
3) The experience from outdoor to indoor is too different. It doesn’t encourage indoor-outdoor transition.

I’ve decided to stick to lead when a gym applies this practice. I don’t understand why they don’t simply provide weights for the belayer when the climber is heavier. My previous gym did this and it made the experience great for everyone.

Having a double wrapped rope makes it feel like the belayer is supper heavy compared to the climber.

Good luck, I support you