Rappelling without extension

rgoldwrote:

The depicted configuration looks to me like a pain for multiple rappels---it looks as if it has to be untied and retired for each rappel.

Point taken

Seems an appropriate place to add that I recently did some testing on rappel rigging that addresses this and related subject matter:

http://staff.weber.edu/derekdebruin/research/rappelling.pdf

I'll also add that some things have definitely changed in the years since the SPI manual was published; I would not take the entirety of its contents as gospel (said as someone who teaches SPI programs).

Eric Mosswrote:

Point taken

I know what I can do...make it worse!

Derek DeBruinwrote:

Seems an appropriate place to add that I recently did some testing on rappel rigging that addresses this and related subject matter:

http://staff.weber.edu/derekdebruin/research/rappelling.pdf

I'll also add that some things have definitely changed in the years since the SPI manual was published; I would not take the entirety of its contents as gospel (said as someone who teaches SPI programs).

Required reading!

Not to start a debate on it, but why not just wrap on a grigri or other device that will lock up? Smart alpine works well if you hate blocked raps or simulrapping. Just seems like a lot of fuckery to deal with to prevent an unlikely scenario instead of just using a different (read: better) device. 

Not Hobo Greg showed me the best way to rappel in jtree (thanks dude!)

First, one person sets up on an extended atc, no friction hitch. Then, they hold onto one strand, the other person sets up on the other strand, below the atc, with a Grigri, and raps. Then they give the first person a fireman's belay as they come down. Super fast, easy, and safe.

The ATC being extended isnt necessary but makes it more comfortable while the other person raps.

Why the hell aren't harnesses manufactured with a full-strength loop for a carabiner, sewn onto the legs loops for the purpose of attaching a third hand? If I use a third hand I usually extend my rappel and put the friction hitch on my belay loop. If there was a third-hand carabiner loop on the leg loop I would stop extending the device. Only takes a few moments to extend using a sling, but still it would be  a big convenience, especially for short rappels.

Rasputin NLNwrote:

Why the hell aren't harnesses manufactured with a full-strength loop for a carabiner, sewn onto the legs loops for the purpose of attaching a third hand? If I use a third hand I usually extend my rappel and put the friction hitch on my belay loop. If there was a third-hand carabiner loop on the leg loop I would stop extending the device. Only takes a few moments to extend using a sling, but still it would be  a big convenience, especially for short rappels.

Then there was a CLICK sound... and Rasputin starts sketching out a patent... flash FWD 20 years and Rasputin drinks lots of beverages with tiny umbrellas in them in very tropical environments. He sighs deeply... and thinks... "Do I miss any of those MP peeps... Nahhhhhhh."

Connor Dobsonwrote:

why not just wrap on a device that will lock up? Smart alpine works well

Gotta say I’m with Connor on this one.  I’ve been using the smart alpine and the megajul for the  last decade, both non-extended, and watching the spread of rappel extension techniques with some skepticism.  I understand that brake-assist devices don’t automatically lock up in all cases and that there is some risk in relying on your brake hand with no “real” backup, but in practice I find the brake-assist devices lock up immediately and every time if I am not actively positioning them to allow rope through.  That technique of actively pushing the thumb-hook part away from you during rappelling takes a bit of extra work, I suppose, but no more in my experience than the extra work it used to take to hold brake-hand position on an old non-toothed ATC or tuber when rapping with a heavy pack.  Besides, the pushing-away technique is the same that you use to lead belay and feed rope for clipping, so it’s pretty embedded after a short while.  Once you’re over the learning period on one of the non-mechanical brake-assist devices, the added security they offer for negligible added weight and bulk is great, and I notice this the most on rappel.  They make things very simple— I can go hands free on rappel in a few seconds with a couple leg wraps as back up.  If I’m worried about a particular rappel route or particular contributing factors like wind or rockfall hazard in a specific location, I can still put on an autoblock on a leg loop (though in nearly all those situations so far I’ve still not fussed with extending the device).

I know many people complain (or maybe just worry?) about the jerkiness of the lowering, but I find that is mostly a question of familiarity with the device and practice.

I have wondered, however, if my experience is also influenced by being relatively lighter weight?  I wonder if a larger climber than me would find the experience of rapping on an alpine smart or the like to be harder to make smooth?  I can say I’ve rapped on them with pack weight, and it’s been similarly smooth.  If, in part, the extension of the rappel device is about positioning it to maximize the friction and thus the “hold” on the rope, then perhaps a heavier climber would actually benefit more than me from the higher friction of the brake-assist device due to its positioning.  

At any rate, it all does make me wonder at times if the rappel extension is attempting to solve a problem that a change in rappel device can solve easier and more simply, while also conveying additional benefits for belaying in the first place.

T Legowrote:

I know what I can do...make it worse!

How is it worse?  It's as fast as the leg loop backup.

Josh, 

I'm something of an atc pilot enjoyer myself.  Guess I'll have to wait for a 2-channel version.

Rasputin NLNwrote:

Why the hell aren't harnesses manufactured with a full-strength loop for a carabiner, sewn onto the legs loops for the purpose of attaching a third hand? If I use a third hand I usually extend my rappel and put the friction hitch on my belay loop. If there was a third-hand carabiner loop on the leg loop I would stop extending the device. Only takes a few moments to extend using a sling, but still it would be  a big convenience, especially for short rappels.

The issue with using the leg loop isn’t the strength, it’s the potential for the third hand cord to make contact with the rappel device, causing the cord to loosen its grip on the rope. 

This instructional video is one of the best rigging set ups I've ever seen.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qgygg8pzGI&t=647s

shows why the extension, how to improve safety,  why the leg loop back-up can fail.  At 12 minutes, pretty much the perfect rappel righ.

Rasputin NLNwrote:

Why the hell aren't harnesses manufactured with a full-strength loop for a carabiner, sewn onto the legs loops for the purpose of attaching a third hand? If I use a third hand I usually extend my rappel and put the friction hitch on my belay loop. If there was a third-hand carabiner loop on the leg loop I would stop extending the device. Only takes a few moments to extend using a sling, but still it would be  a big convenience, especially for short rappels.

the new MM sonic does (i can't find it on the old one):

Am I doing it right now, guys?  Definitely can't contact the belay device. (I'm just kidding, of course)

You know, one thing I would really miss about the leg loop backup is how I can lift my leg to unjam the fiction hitch if it seizes up.  If no backup is like free solo, then perhaps the leg loop is like trad. 

Perhaps I'm overthinking it, but I would worry this setup would cause a lot of a wear and tear on the harness. If you are in a situation where you are frequently loading the friction hitch, the thin cord will constantly rub the tie-in points, potentially in a saw-like manor. In the standard leg-loop situation you use a carabiner attachment and it is a non-issue.

Eric Mosswrote:

Am I doing it right now, guys?  

haha

well, this fits. we always thought you were basically pulling this stuff out of your ass…

Brandon Rwrote:

The issue with using the leg loop isn’t the strength, it’s the potential for the third hand cord to make contact with the rappel device, causing the cord to loosen its grip on the rope. 

My concern isn't the strength because when I clip the carabiner around my leg loop it's already full-strength, though I figure a rappel-backup specific loop sewn onto the leg loop should be full-strength as well. It's about having a fixed point to attach a carabiner since the carabiner can slide back and forth when it's clipped around the webbing of the leg loop. 

Ben Horowitzwrote:

Perhaps I'm overthinking it, but I would worry this setup would cause a lot of a wear and tear on the harness. If you are in a situation where you are frequently loading the friction hitch, the thin cord will constantly rub the tie-in points, potentially in a saw-like manor. In the standard leg-loop situation you use a carabiner attachment and it is a non-issue.

Good point, how about this?

just duct tape it in place. 

Shaniacwrote:

Then there was a CLICK sound... and Rasputin starts sketching out a patent... flash FWD 20 years and Rasputin drinks lots of beverages with tiny umbrellas in them in very tropical environments. He sighs deeply... and thinks... "Do I miss any of those MP peeps... Nahhhhhhh."

For what it's worth, my patent didn't take off. I embezzled a ton of money and moved to a warm country without an extradition treaty with the US. I spend my days rebuilding an old wooden boat I found washed up on the beach but things really haven't come together because I'm not a very good carpenter.