Canyoneering Suspension Trauma Death?

Sam Skovgaard wrote:

Why can't you just push away from the wall with one foot, thus freeing the rope from the crack and then ascend using your other foot?  I do plenty of rope climbing related to aid/big wall climbing, and this situation seems trivial if indeed "ascending the rope is no problem."

Am I missing something?

That would definitely work, and would be relatively easy if the rope isn't too deep.  If the rope is really deep and the angle prevents you from moving your prusiks (or whatever) higher, it seems like it could be really difficult, if not impossible?  Aid/big wall climbers, please chime in.  

Jamila W wrote:

Are they saying that the person would have to actually climb it and couldn’t ascend the rope?

Correct.  Though as others are pointing out here, ascending the rope should still be possible (just more difficult).  As Allen mentions above, the comment is from a canyoneering forum, but was made by someone who also climbs.  I'm basing all my comments off that video that the OP linked to.  Let's be clear, we are all speculating about what happened and I don't have any first hand experience with that rap.  If you watch the video, you can see that the weighted rope gets sucked into a wide crack below the ledge, and it would present a challenge to ascend, if you weren't familiar with that sort of thing.  Factor in darkness, being tired, scared, etc. and it's easy to see how an accident might happen. 

Bill Lawry wrote:

6 inches inside should be doable, IMHO. You were kind. :)

Tie catastrophe knot below and ease down onto it.  Hang your pack about foot level from your harness so you can easily move it with your feet when needed. Prussic as usual as high as you can. Rotate / spin on the line as needed until your front is facing outward from the cliff. When you next stand up, you are pulling /shoving/whatever with your free arm and wriggling your head, neck and shoulders out from under the overhang and hopefully onto a more vertical rock above. This maneuver also moves the rope out of the crack - at least in the near vicinity of you. Reset and repeat.

Lots of things will make this harder to impossible like nearby rap anchor causing unfavorable angle of rope back into crack, rope being deeper in and yourself also hanging deep under a roof the crack runs through, rough conditions already mentioned, etc..

Yeah that seems like it would work and is a great explanation/idea.  Seems like you could make progress, even if only measured in fractions of an inch, with a lot of effort.  I have to admit, this thought experiment makes me hate rapping even more, because I had never considered this scenario before.

Since they had a pull line that was thick enough for rappelling, couldn't they have joined the pull line with the main rope at the top and then lowered the stuck person to the ground?

Well if it's impossible then it's impossible. 

Tie off and do some climbing, use the rope for tension of course. But ultimately if the rope is stuck in the back of a crack and there is no physical way to get in there to get it unstuck, it may be time to make that SOS call.

The most important thing, imo, when posing these questions is to ask yourself to solve it first in your own mind, before you ask others. Work it out and then compare your solution to others, rather than just (not you personally) sit back and expecting your betters to hand you a solution.

How? Do your homework all the time. And read threads like this. Even though people tend to find them annoying, if it prompts you to visualize/solve your own hypotheticals, they have accomplished something very important. Personally I have always had this habit as I learned in a time and place where all these wonderful online resources just didn't exist and I did not have access to any guides or schools, etc. Read a book, visualize the hell out of, well, everything, over and over.

It's all about problem solving in situations of stress and danger. Fun stuff!

Jon W wrote:

Since they had a pull line that was thick enough for rappelling, couldn't they have joined the pull line with the main rope at the top and then lowered the stuck person to the ground?

It's likely that this wasn't an option. The rap from the last station "bird perch" is 90m free-hanging. For this canyon I think the typical strategy is to carry that 90m rope all the way through and use shorter ropes for the earlier rappels for efficiency reasons, also keeping the long one dry since it's so heavy already. It's very possible that the person going first on the penultimate rap would have the 90m rope with them, which would mean the remaining ropes in possession of the others would not be long enough to lower the first person to the ground. 

Jon W wrote:

Since they had a pull line that was thick enough for rappelling, couldn't they have joined the pull line with the main rope at the top and then lowered the stuck person to the ground?

This seems like an interesting idea. Definitely worth trying to work through how to transfer a reepschnur blocked rappel to a lower. I end up with a with a setup lowering them off a munter on the anchor masterpoint, is that what everyone else gets? With or without a prusik on hand, I think.  

I suspect it is irrelevant to the canyoneering example in the OP. They were on a 45m rappel with a 90m rappel to rig. Often the 90m rope gets sent with the first one down so they start rigging while others rap to join them. (see above) It's important both to practice coming up with ways out of these situations, and remember these armchair 'solutions' in no way take away from the real tragedy nor put blame on the climbers/canyoneers who actually lived the situation.

As someone who had never considered this as a way of dying when out climbing, this has been a really interesting thread. 

In thinking about what you could do in this situation as either the rappeler or a partner, I thought about this post Karsten Delap made a few weeks ago about a way to rap a weighted, doubled rope https://www.instagram.com/reel/CVwNzpHjFol/?utm_medium=copy_link

I had really only thought of it as a way to get someone if they were knocked out due to rockfall, or some other major trauma event. 

On a single line, couldn't you lower down the weighted line on a prussik or other friction hitch and attempt to help push the rope out of the crack, and/or help rig a way to get the stuck person propped up? 

I know canyoneering is notorious for sketchy anchors, so maybe this isn't an option to put so much weight on the anchor, and maybe the same would be true in climbing situations where the anchor is less than ideal, but seems like there should be some way to help from top down. 

From another video of the final rap (link below), this is a screen shot looking up at the roof and rope eating crack:

https://youtu.be/HP5Xf6NftE0

These threads are why I look at the forums, great new info for me

Ben Taggart wrote:

It's likely that this wasn't an option. The rap from the last station "bird perch" is 90m free-hanging. For this canyon I think the typical strategy is to carry that 90m rope all the way through and use shorter ropes for the earlier rappels for efficiency reasons, also keeping the long one dry since it's so heavy already. It's very possible that the person going first on the penultimate rap would have the 90m rope with them, which would mean the remaining ropes in possession of the others would not be long enough to lower the first person to the ground. 

We know that the pull line was long enough for the two partners to get to the Bird Perch so if they joined the pull line to the main rope then it will be long enough to get the end of the main rope to the Bird Perch which is where they wanted to start the final rappel.

Jon W wrote:

We know that the pull line was long enough for the two partners to get to the Bird Perch so if they joined the pull line to the main rope then it will be long enough to get the end of the main rope to the Bird Perch which is where they wanted to start the final rappel.

Except the 90m rope was most likely in the pack of the person hanging/dying 20' below the Perch. Missing those details though makes most of this speculation.

Without knowing the details of who had what gear and ropes on them or how the ropes and rappels were rigged, it’s impossible to troubleshoot specifics.   It is pretty safe to say though, that with three people (2 at the anchor and 1 dangling 20 feet below), that there was sufficient personnel and equipment available to solve the situation in a variety of ways in theory.  

One thing though that I recently came to personally appreciate, is how quickly the clock starts ticking on your improvised creative solutions even if you have the skills and ability, given being tired and hanging in space.
Just last month I was playing “arborist” to take down some huge trees in my backyard. I totally underestimated the physical hardship and my “working window” before being essentially numbed and incapacitated using std climbing gear. I had Covid at the time and was at about 60% performance capability, but still, from my armchair what seemed like simple rope ascension, hanging around, and rappels in a tree, was WAY more taxing than I thought. (I quickly went from std climbing harness (fuck that) to real arborist harness to actually sitting in a bosun’s chair while I worked. Point is, that I quickly figured out that my limit for hanging in a standard climbing harness was not very long at all. And I had a chest harness. There were a couple times that I actually felt that if I hung there any longer, I was going to fade out and wasn’t going to be able to extract myself up or down. And I had access to every piece of rope gear you could think of. It was eye opening. I promptly returned to the ground and geared up with the proper gear (harness and seat) to be hanging around for hrs, not minutes.

I recommend any climber or canyoneer go F around for a bit in a nearby tree and hang/ascend/rap not just to gain the skill, but to appreciate how quickly you need to act to get out of just free hanging in a regular climbing harness 

That rap image up there really brings it home. It would suck to find myself in a similar situation, hanging below that crack with some scant amount of rope left before the rope ends. What would I do? Job one would be to first see if my partners could help extricate me from that place. Next would be for me to get myself secured to the rope(s). So even if I could not some how lever out and over, or climb back up that slot, I could at least rig a foot loop with the remaining rope and partially stand up, to help with the suspension issues. I would say I'd try damn hard not to get into that situation to begin with but that said I've been "that guy," rapping a blank wall into the darkness only to find myself 10 feet from the end of the rope and not an anchor in sight. It happens. Its why for multi-pitch raps, each person should have enough gear on their persons to at least get off rap and secured to the rope, and climb back up that rope. That time I found myself off route and out of rope? I was young and dumb - I bat-manned up a vertical wall in 3 chunks, locking off with one hand and cloving in short before my arm gave out! It was crazy fucking scary to do that but I'm here to type about it. We all go through similar lessons I suspect, that inform our future decisions. 

Marc801 C wrote:

Except the 90m rope was most likely in the pack of the person hanging/dying 20' below the Perch. Missing those details though makes most of this speculation.

Well, if he had a 90m rope in his backpack then he could have rappelled to the end of his current rope, joined the two ropes, and then rappelled to the ground.

I won't speculate anymore since we don't have all the details as others have said.

I also agree that it's much different to troubleshoot a problem sitting in front of a computer than when you are actually out there and tired and scared.

Jon W wrote:

Well, if he had a 90m rope in his backpack then he could have rappelled to the end of his current rope, joined the two ropes, and then rappelled to the ground.

I won't speculate anymore since we don't have all the details as others have said.

I also agree that it's much different to troubleshoot a problem sitting in front of a computer than when you are actually out there and tired and scared.

Yep.  Mighta been above his pay grade or too much at the end of a very long day (and then night).

Something I've always done, is, instead of a knot at the end of a rappel rope, I put an overhand or figure eight on a bite.  That way, I have a loop to clip into (or, could stand in).  Already there on the rope.  Also gives you something to clip to the next anchor as you'd want to manage that rope end for your partners too.  Even if you ended up losing control of the rappel, you'd end up against the knot on the loop.  You'd still have that loop to clip into for safety.

The ability to stop on rappel, and, convert to ascend, efficiently, isn't something everyone is always prepared for.  We should be.  Good reminder.

First, I realized after posting before that I didn't say a couple of things.  

Condolences to the family and friends of the person that passed away in this particular accident, especially those that were present.  My response was in no way meant to be an examination of this  person's partners in this situation, but was more directed at the conversation that had spun off in regards to the ways to address the situation if we found ourselves in a similar predicament.   In case any of those partners or friends and family find this thread, I hope it is clear that we are not looking to second guess how anyone handled this but are hoping to broaden everyone else's knowledge going forward.  

Brian in SLC wrote:

Something I've always done, is, instead of a knot at the end of a rappel rope, I put an overhand or figure eight on a bite.  That way, I have a loop to clip into (or, could stand in).  Already there on the rope.  Also gives you something to clip to the next anchor as you'd want to manage that rope end for your partners too.  Even if you ended up losing control of the rappel, you'd end up against the knot on the loop.  You'd still have that loop to clip into for safety.

The ability to stop on rappel, and, convert to ascend, efficiently, isn't something everyone is always prepared for.  We should be.  Good reminder.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a figure 8 can unroll at the end of a rope?  This could be averted by tying a double fisherman as a finish knot with the loose end? 

I think your idea is good, but just if anyone is reading this and collecting ideas that they need to be aware of the fine details in the decision making.  

Marc801 C wrote:

From another video of the final rap (link below), this is a screen shot looking up at the roof and rope eating crack:

https://youtu.be/HP5Xf6NftE0

It sounds like from a post above that if rapping from the first station and missing the perch that the rope may actually go through the smaller crack on the right of this picture, which does look like a rope eater that would be very difficult to extract from.  And, you'd need to be pretty long and strong to reach the wall and press your way towards the edge.  Really frightening scenario. 

[edit as I'm over limit]  

In response to Brian below, 

I am thinking of an 8 on a bight at the end of a rope.  

Similarly I was told that if using a figure 8 to make a loop as a master point in an anchor, and clipping the shelf, that a carabiner should always be kept in the loop of the master point because weighting the shelf could collapse the loop.  It is probably not very likely, but possible.  Probably more possible if accelerating down a rope on a rappel, but I could be mistaken.  

Paul L wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a figure 8 can unroll at the end of a rope?  This could be averted by tying a double fisherman as a finish knot with the loose end? 

I think your idea is good, but just if anyone is reading this and collecting ideas that they need to be aware of the fine details in the decision making.  

Figure eight on a bite?  Makes a loop to clip into (or anchor with, or whatever).  Commonly used anchor loop.  Like on a cord or web-o-lette.

I think you've confused this to mean a figure eight used like an EDK to tie two ropes together.  Yeah, don't use an in-line figure eight aka a flat figure of eight bend to tie two ropes together.

What I'm referring to is using a figure eight on a bite at the end of a rope rather than just a stopper knot.  Not tying to ropes together.

Edit 'cause I've maxed out my post limit...

Paul wrote:  Similarly I was told that if using a figure 8 to make a loop as a master point in an anchor, and clipping the shelf, that a carabiner should always be kept in the loop of the master point because weighting the shelf could collapse the loop.  It is probably not very likely, but possible.  Probably more possible if accelerating down a rope on a rappel, but I could be mistaken.  

I get your point.  A carabiner in the loop might negate any concerns...and...could be clipped at your harness if you felt the need to keep the rope end with you on descent.

Can't imagine loosing control on a rappel and slamming into a knot or loop at rope's end...but...could happen.  Good point.  Be interesting to test (!).

Yet another post limit inspired edit:

Paul wrote:  It sounds like from a post above that if rapping from the first station and missing the perch that the rope may actually go through the smaller crack on the right of this picture, which does look like a rope eater that would be very difficult to extract from.  And, you'd need to be pretty long and strong to reach the wall and press your way towards the edge.  Really frightening scenario.

The photo shows the rope coming from the bird perch anchor, most likely.  That anchor position is back away from the edge and on the wall at climber's left.  Which is why the rope dives into that crack.

From the tree anchor above, the rope doesn't end up that close to the bird perch anchor.  My guess is that the rope wouldn't be that deep into the slot.  More likely hanging out to the climber's right.

Still....frightening.  The tree anchor rappel is way steeper than it looks.  And, in the dark, I could totally see rapping past the bird perch especially if you had never done that exit before.

Triple edit...to show the rappels in more detail (photo's stolen from Tom):

Below is the view leaving the tree anchor.  Note how the rappeler has kinda angled toward the wall on looker's right as that's where the bird perch anchor is.  In the dark, or, if you'd never been, you might just go straight away and down...which might put the rope further to the looker's left, and, well away from the bird perch final anchor.

In the below view, note how the rappeler is coming into the bird perch.  He's following the rope into the perch, but, its not a straight shot.  He's well out away from the anchor and being guided into the bird perch by his partners.

Its a big air location for sure.  That water pool below is a good 280 feet straight down.   And, the wall there cuts away underneath you.  Pretty intimidating for most folks.

Brian in SLC wrote:

The ability to stop on rappel, and, convert to ascend, efficiently, isn't something everyone is always prepared for.  We should be.  Good reminder.

Excellent recommendation re a loop at the end of the rope rather than a knot, Brian. I am going to incorporate this.

I’ve done a fair amount of canyoneering. I used to rappel directly off my belay loop, but for climbing and canyoning I now use an extension, so I can transition my ATC to guide mode to ascend. 

Like this:

https://youtu.be/WsaSNUMCm44?t=61