Found a Secret Crag

Over my weekend wanderings I stumbled across a new crag with several lines. There is no information about it anywhere and I know it was bolted recently since I had been in the area before and considered development myself. The lines look fun and well bolted and protected. However, I don’t want to step on toes. What’s the protocol when you find a secret crag? Climb the routes? Or wait for the green from a proj post? Troll away…

Just climb it if it's on public land. Probably best to keep it quiet though if you don't want to step on any toes. Definitely don't post it on here.

Climb it! There’s a bunch of crags local to me which have been developed for a few years and the developers don’t want them on MP. There are guide books for them available directly through the developers though. 

J W wrote:Just out of curiosity, limestone or basalt?

Limestone

Climb any of the routes that don’t have a red tag in the first bolt. 

Jesus, climb them. I would want someone to climb my routes, secret or not. Share them with friends, of course. Keep them off this place, probably. 

Brian Campbellwrote:

Climb any of the routes that don’t have a red tag in the first bolt. 

Nah.  Climb all of them, but make sure you let go at the top of the ones that are red tagged.

Max Tepferwrote:

Nah.  Climb all of them, but make sure you let go at the top of the ones that are red tagged.

Fuck that. It is rude and besides red tags can also indicate dangers like not all the bolts are in, a bolt may be a temporary low quality one used for a directional while scrubbing, etc. Most new routers find it pretty insulting to not respect the creation process. If the tag has been on for a while, ask around to find out who is working on it and ask them what is up. A little courtesy is often enough for people to open up their aging projects. Having people jump all over your tagged project without asking is pretty insulting and saps the psyche needed to finish big bolting and cleaning projects..Bumm rushing people's projects will cut down the time they spend to do a quality job. It is especially shitty when there are plenty of other lines you could prep and climb yourself and the only reason the project line is so attractive is the effort the original person has been putting in.

Lighten up dude. Rocks on public land are… public. If you’re developing routes to put your name on FA’s, I think you’re doing it for the wrong reason. 

Ryan Bowenwrote:

Lighten up dude. Rocks on public land are… public. If you’re developing routes to put your name on FA’s, I think you’re doing it for the wrong reason. 

You don't get it. It is not about getting your name on something, though a little pride in your effort is a good thing. Once I have all finished cleaning and bolting a project  I often open them up if they end up taking longer than I expected to redpoint or I let a friend go for the onsight. It is about giving people the space for their creative journey without being hounded. Even if you are still psyched, cleaning on a route that has already had an FA by somebody else, where you are going to be more careful about not changing the character of the route or moving bolts, is different than cleaning a project.

Max Tepferwrote:

Nah.  Climb all of them, but make sure you let go at the top of the ones that are red tagged.

Routes may be redtagged due to issues with fixed gear.
Here is accident report from a few years back http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201209700/Protection-Bolt-Pulled-Out-West-Virginia-Meadow-River

Late in the day on June 23, a bolt pulled out while a climber was lowering off a sport route. The climber struck the ground and broke his leg.
....
The specific route is an uncompleted tagged sport project of unknown difficulty. 

Article that went into greater detail is behind the paywall. But, IIRC, developer tagged the route since he was suspicious of one of the bolts, the one that pulled. I don't remember all details, but, I think, his intention was to fix bolt(s) the week after he tagged his own route, he wasn't able to do so due to to interference from life.

However, I don’t want to step on toes. What’s the protocol when you find a secret crag?

Climb there if you like. Don't ever post any directions to this place, here or anywhere else. Ever.

Mirka Kovawrote:

Climb it! There’s a bunch of crags local to me which have been developed for a few years and the developers don’t want them on MP. There are guide books for them available directly through the developers though. 

This seems to be an unreasonable request.  I can understand the line of reasoning about keeping a secret crag secret (as long as possible, eventually word gets out).  But I don't think you get to "copyright" information about climbs.

Obviously don't post pictures/scans or copy text/drawings from the printed guidebooks (the authors actually do have copyrights on that), but it's unreasonable to try to prevent me posting my own pictures/experience/approach info.  If the guidebook authors don't want MP eating into their profits, they need to make their guidebook useful enough that people are willing to pay for it.

As an example: here in Tucson, 99% of the climbs on Mt. Lemmon are well-organized on MP, but just about everyone buys the local guidebook "Squeezing the Lemmon," because the maps, approach beta, and topo pics are such high quality.

Put them in a guidebook. That's what folks in Washington do. Feel free to name them, too. 

Wow the rigid thinking in this thread… The easiest way to figureout what is what is write a note on a piece of paper put it in a ziplock bag. If it’s an active crag someone might see your note and if you volunteer to help I’m sure you will get a spray down. If they don’t want you out there, they will tell you. If no one is going out there anymore you won’t hear anything. A lot easier than just climbing it or just not climbing it.

A couple things to think about before spraying all over the internet about the in development crag you just stumbled upon. It is not all about developers keeping the crag all to themselves or wanting to do all the routes themselves so "they get their name in the book". Once a crag is publicly known it can get logistically really hard to put up routes with other people milling about underneath or having to carry in three loads of gear every time you want to work rather than being able to have a discrete stash for some of the heavy stuff for a while. Initial development often means having to carry in multiple heavy work ropes, big crow bars, all your bolting and cleaning gear, a full rack, water etc.. It is also harder to  coordinate everybody to develop strategically, where you can plan everything out so it works well when the crag later has more visitors, and not have to correct things as much later.

Unpublished would be a better word for it. If you can't find the developers just start dropping small hints about where it is and they will get in touch with you soon.

Irreverent Bastardwrote:

Over my weekend wanderings I stumbled across a new crag with several lines. There is no information about it anywhere and I know it was bolted recently since I had been in the area before and considered development myself. The lines look fun and well bolted and protected. However, I don’t want to step on toes. What’s the protocol when you find a secret crag? Climb the routes? Or wait for the green from a proj post? Troll away…

climb it, don't post it. you don't have to spray about everything you do, no one cares anyway

Beta is Aid.  I'm with Max and just don't steal any FA's or spray. Easy to get caught up taking things too seriously.

Sam Skovgaardwrote:

This seems to be an unreasonable request.  I can understand the line of reasoning about keeping a secret crag secret (as long as possible, eventually word gets out).  But I don't think you get to "copyright" information about climbs.

Obviously don't post pictures/scans or copy text/drawings from the printed guidebooks (the authors actually do have copyrights on that), but it's unreasonable to try to prevent me posting my own pictures/experience/approach info.  If the guidebook authors don't want MP eating into their profits, they need to make their guidebook useful enough that people are willing to pay for it.

As an example: here in Tucson, 99% of the climbs on Mt. Lemmon are well-organized on MP, but just about everyone buys the local guidebook "Squeezing the Lemmon," because the maps, approach beta, and topo pics are such high quality.

Come to New England. Half the crags near me would likely get shut down or chopped if they were posted on MP.

Bryce Adamsonwrote:

Come to New England. Half the crags near me would likely get shut down or chopped if they were posted on MP.

Or some folks would come along and finish up the developing cause asking around is just too polite. Been there.