Is Short Roping Only A Guide’s Technique?

I think some people have a hard time differentiating between a slip and a fall. There is a difference.

See RGs post.. 

Some interesting history with commentary about the origin of  the first of RGold’s references - Until Death Do Us Part - is below it seems. UDDUP was written by accomplished guide,  Braun-Elwart. The history / commentary may explain some of the disdainful tone in his - Braun-Elwart’s - paper toward’s short roping. I would say it is not a very objective paper / article - mostly condescendingly advocating to not short rode.  Recommend skipping it for the other two  links.

“Beuzenberg, who was a long-time guide at Alpine Recreation and had been a regular climbing partner of Braun-Elwert's [author of RGold’s first reference], died in 2005. She was short roping two clients across Ball Pass below Mt. Cook when one of them slipped, and she was unable to hold the resulting 200m+ fall that ended with the deaths of all three climbers. This prompted Braun-Elwart to write an in-depth paper on the whole issue of short roping, subsequently giving many guides food for thought.”

Source: Well-known Guide Dies in New Zealand Alps [ ‘natural causes’ ]

Edit: It is worth watching the video and reading the test paper.

Max Tepfer wrote:

That's not been my experience at all.  Angle is just one of many critical factors that hugely impact the mechanics of the situation.  (how icy or soft the snow is, the geometry of the guide's footing, the friction coefficient of the slope the client slips on, etc.)

Max, I have no dog in this fight.  In almost literally a lifetime of climbing, I never short-roped a partner or been short-roped.  I know nothing about it first-hand.  So I'm not trying to promote a point of view when I say that your response seems to miss at least some of the point, which is very specifically about the tested ability of a trained person to hold a short-roped fall on a 30-degree ice slope.  It isn't about what can be done in soft snow, for example, and it isn't about slopes with frictional properties different from bare ice. The tests did address, to some extent, the geometry of the guide's footing, but didn't find any configuration effective in general. So the tests cannot tell---and do not pretend to tell---about the effectiveness of short-roping in a host of situations that may be quite common in the guiding world. They do say that, if in the course of a climb, the guide and client find themselves on 30-degree bare ice, that short-roping is very likely to fail with catastrophic results.

rgold wrote:

Max, I have no dog in this fight.  In almost literally a lifetime of climbing, I never short-roped a partner or been short-roped.  I know nothing about it first-hand.  So I'm not trying to promote a point of view when I say that your response seems to miss at least some of the point, which is very specifically about the tested ability of a trained person to hold a short-roped fall on a 30-degree ice slope.  It isn't about what can be done in soft snow, for example, and it isn't about slopes with frictional properties different from bare ice. The tests did address, to some extent, the geometry of the guide's footing, but didn't find any configuration effective in general. So the tests cannot tell---and do not pretend to tell---about the effectiveness of short-roping in a host of situations that may be quite common in the guiding world. They do say that, if in the course of a climb, the guide and client find themselves on 30-degree bare ice, that short-roping is very likely to fail with catastrophic results.

Fair.  I think I may have read too much into the specific wording in your original post. (likely exacerbated by not actually clicking through to the studies) Icy vs. Ice can mean very different things in this particular context.  I'd 100% agree that short roping 30º ice is at beyond the holding power of all but the most generous of weight differentials.  'Icy' can and has been used to describe the gamut of snow conditions.  

rgold wrote:

They do say that, if in the course of a climb, the guide and client find themselves on 30-degree bare ice, that short-roping is very likely to fail with catastrophic results.

The below observation does appear to say the test conditions produced a 50-50 result.

“Overall average for failing forces (long loop , short loop, uphill, downhill, standing) = 356 N, standard deviation = 111 N

“Overall average for holding forces (long loop , short loop, uphill, downhill, standing) = 345 N, standard deviation = 101 N”

350 N = 79 lbs

In the tests themselves, it seems worth mentioning, the “guides” had what looked to me like ideal foot traction - crampons in a stationary rug.  Did not see any foot or rug slippage in the video, even with the “failures”.  … ankle breaker traction … better than really hard flat ice where failure rate would probably be worse than in the tests.  

Edit: I’m agreeing with abandon’s point. The angle of bullet proof ice would likely need to be lower to achieve the test results assuming all else equal (which is almost never the case between tests and reality).

Would the average experienced person (e.g., guide) venture out on sloped hard ice while short roping? Thinking about that makes me nervous. 

This conversation and those tests are all off a bit.  Short roping is not a belay technique, it’s basically a way to transport the rope between difficulties while traveling over terain and at a pace where constantly unroping and roping up is impractical.  When a difficilty is encountered, the rope is generally extended and a for-real belay is provided.  It all requires some experience and judgement.  The tests are citing when judgement fails.  In the Mt Rogers accident, guide was not giving a true moving short rope belay - just a shitty one.  Where things actually get sketch is on snow where reliable pro and belays add more time than is available to get the climb done, the risk of falls are a little higher but the forces much lower and the safety-speed thing really comes into play due to changing conditions.

James W wrote:

Short roping is not a belay technique, it’s basically a way to transport the rope between difficulties while traveling over terain and at a pace where constantly unroping and roping up is impractical.  When a difficilty is encountered, the rope is generally extended and a for-real belay is provided. 

James:

The first link in this thread has the below description of the purpose of short roping.  Your described purpose - to transport a rope without fully stowing it - is at the opposite extreme.

Definition:

Short-roping is when a "guide" (the more confident person) and a "client" (the less confident person - either through inexperience, injury, exhaustion, or a variety of other reasons) move together over terrain that is subjectively or objectively hazardous, joined by a rope for the protection or comfort of the client, but without recourse to placing conventional protection.

Based on the comments so far, it seems that safety using short roping techniques depends not only on competence, but also on realization of the limitations of short roping. I do not consider the photo of the “euros” falling down a mountainside tied together “short roping”.

Am pasting below some excerpts from The Mountain Guide Manual, by Chauvin and Coppolillo, as reference to a modern guiding perspective on short roping.

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Short-Roping
As with recreational climbers, the guide tries to have terrain between himself and his client (as intermediate protection) while they’re moving together. If there is one place where recreational climbers’ techniques look the most like short-roping, it is in this terrain. If this isn’t possible, the guide begins short-roping.

While the two approaches share similarities, some subtle and critical differences emerge. A guide will stop and do a quick belay (body, terrain, or Munter off the harness, for example) when terrain separates the guide and client. The guide then adjusts his position (to the other side of the terrain or another feature entirely) when the client moves into a position that is no longer protected by the initial feature. With a new feature between them, the guide speeds through the next section while protected.

This type of progression has the guide trying to keep the client moving steadily while the guide adjusts his pace, timing his moves to get the most out of the terrain. Ultimately if there are no useful terrain features, the guide will stay very close to the client, carrying coils in his hand and using tension on the rope to prevent a slip from becoming a fall. The guide keeps gentle tension in the rope so he can react immediately and pull the client into the terrain (and back into balance) if the client slips.

Yes, real short-roping is stressful, and good guides use it far less than most think. On ridges, a good guide can have terrain between himself and his client most of the time. It is on third-class faces with sandy and/ or sloping ledges when short-roping as a guide gets very scary. Guides may start to pitch this terrain out, even when the movement seems easy. There are lots of guides who have short-roped on this type of terrain and were not pulled off, not because short-roping worked, but because clients didn’t fall. Of course, that leads to another discussion entirely. (That is, making sure your client has the appropriate skill for the route you’ve chosen.)

For the guide who is short-roping and runs into a section he feels is too difficult to be assured his client won’t fall (like the sandy, third-class terrain mentioned above), he can move above it and do a quick belay even if the anchor only involves a solid stance. Short-roping therefore requires that the guide is ready to check a slip at all times, and when he can’t, to use a quick belay when the terrain gets harder.

Relatively easy but dangerously exposed terrain presents some risk, and in many cases a recreational party chooses to unrope and accept the risk individually rather than as a team. In guiding, the guide accepts the responsibility for himself and the client( s), and therefore it is inappropriate to unrope from them. For this reason guides must have the final say as to who gets to climb what route. Guides also decide unilaterally when to turn back.

Guides must exercise their best judgment and in serious terrain forget the pressures of goal-focused clients for the moment. After all, both the guide’s and clients’lives depend on expert judgment. Clients’ disappointments and squabbles over refunds can wait until the safety of the trailhead.

If you are a citizen leader, this terrain—low probability of an accident, but high consequence should one occur—can be very problematic. If you would unrope with a friend, then what do you do when leading a club group? Often it is the leader that picks the route, so he is making some informed decision that the new participant may not fully understand.

Naturally we can suggest the leader pitch it out, but why wouldn’t a professional guide? Often the routes we are talking about don’t allow for pitching given their length and commitment; time and weather pressure can provide risks as great as those a guide takes short-roping. We would hope that the club leader has a solid knowledge of a route and picks an objective he feels comfortable leading with a less-experienced partner. In some cases the club leader will have people so competent they will stick to purely recreational techniques described earlier. It isn’t impossible to get training in short-roping so that the citizen leader can use that technique, but it takes time to learn and even with that it is easy to get rusty. We won’t suggest that the citizen leader can’t do it. It will require dedication to the training and keeping up the skill, however.

Having said that, excellent rope skills can allow you to move quickly and protect both you and others in places that, without the skills, would require taking on unreasonable risks. If you can’t remove all risk, you should remove as much as you can.

"We won’t suggest that the citizen leader can’t do it. It will require dedication to the training and keeping up the skill, however''

In my experience, very few climbers "require dedication to the training" to do it well. The technique is self-evident to most experienced "citizen leaders". 

As to it only being a guide thing: Obviously no, but it is less likely to be employed unless you have kids involved or, say, a climber who is clearly struggling mentally or physically.

Short-roping is seen everyday during the Teton high season. 

As to the steep icy, or snowy, slopes, it really does depend upon conditions but if ICY defines them, short-roping seems like the tool of last resort if anything else is available. But, I do enjoy watching others try.

Teton Climber wrote:

As to it only being a guide thing: Obviously no, but it is less likely to be employed unless you have kids involved or, say, a climber who is clearly struggling mentally or physically.

+ One-Time Curious Non-climbing Aging Siblings / Relatives. :)

I’d hesitate to include a volunteer club as Chauvin and Coppolillo have.  A club’s  focus is usually (?) to help members advance their skill set - to become climbing peers, not to enable a member to remain unskilled and yet still climb to some degree.

Of course, there could be clubs whose vision is to cater to certain folks like those listed above. Still, Volunteer resources seem hard enough to come by - even in a metro area of a million people - so the focus tends towards what the majority of people want to do and not stuff in the exceptional areas.

Back to the Chauvin and Coppolillo manual, it is telling that the one instructional book I have heard essentially takes 9 of the 10 steps, so to speak, towards saying it is a guide thing.

As to this potential for a club leader needing to short rope …

Often it is the leader that picks the route, so he is making some informed decision that the new participant may not fully understand.

Another option in a club is to tell people they are not ready for the route or, if unsure of their ability, to suggest climbing something easier some other time, like you would for any potential climbing partner.  Would a club with a leader competency at short roping change much?  Doubtful. Don’t see incentive.

Short roping can be used in recreational climbing to make certain parts either faster or safer, but it probably isn’t worth the necessary time investment to learn and maintain your short-roping skills, if you only plan to climb recreationally with partners that can safely free solo 3rd and 4th class terrain.

If you want to learn to short rope, I would recommend taking the AMGA/ACMG rock and alpine guide courses or hire an experienced guide to teach you short-roping skills.  Misapplication of short-roping is worse than free-soloing, so don’t do it unless you are willing to spend the time (and money) to learn how to do it well.  

Even when you can do it well, extended short-roping in hazardous terrain is very stressful and mentally exhausting.  

"Misapplication of short-roping is worse than free-soloing"

Worse?

Hmmm.

Don't you think upon reflection that any misapplication of any climbing technique might take your life or get you seriously injured? 

In regards to learning SR, I'd suggest trying a book first. It isn't rocket science. 

Yep. Just nit, and cherry, picking the comment. ;) 

Teton Climber wrote:

"Misapplication of short-roping is worse than free-soloing"

Worse?

Hmmm.

Don't you think upon reflection that any misapplication of any climbing technique might take your life or get you seriously injured? 

In regards to learning SR, I'd suggest trying a book first. It isn't rocket science. 

Yep. Just nit, and cherry, picking the comment. ;) 

If you are short roping and one climber takes out the others, the entire party may die.  A screw up can kill the entire rope team.  

If free soloing and one person falls, then the unroped partner(s) can potentially rescue/recover the fallen climber.  

People frequently die or get severely injured, when short roping, despite it not being rocket science.  It is naive to think that you could learn short roping from a book and then never make a potentially fatal mistake.  

Douglas Fairbanks, Jr. and Glynis Johns climb in the Dolomites of northeastern Italy while filming a scene from The Great Manhunt (1950)

If you search on u tube you can find this movie. At about 1:20 the climbing starts, Short rope, shoulder belay, dulfersitz, lead climbing, the works on location in Italy.

Karl Henize wrote:

If you are short roping and one climber takes out the others, the entire party may die.  A screw up can kill the entire rope team.  

If free soloing and one person falls, then the unroped partner(s) can potentially rescue/recover the fallen climber.  

People frequently die or get severely injured, when short roping, despite it not being rocket science.  It is naive to think that you could learn short roping from a book and then never make a potentially fatal mistake.  

Yep. Anything could happen while mountaineering. As I pointed out, I enjoy watching people try it. But that doesn't make it worse per se. 

It is also the case that an unroped climber could take out the entire team of unroped climbers. Worst-case. The odds of one happening may be different but the worst-case outcome is no different. If the terrain is that dangerous and climbers that unskilled, short roping is probably a questionable idea to begin with. 

Baking a pie may be rocket science to some but for most people baking a pie is not rocket science. Neither is SR'n. The idea that one can't learn SR'n from reading would suggest that every book about climbing technique is useless. Anyone can field practice what they learned without a guide. To suggest otherwise is naive. 

A guide is just a different way to deliver information when it comes to learning SR'n.

As for "people frequently die when short roping". Yeah. And they die soloing. Group deaths are frequent? I haven't seen that stat. Perhaps you can link to it.

A guide/instructor gives you feedback when you do something unsafe or inefficient. A book will never be able to watch you and provide feedback.  

If you have actually read and become proficient at short roping solely from reading a book, then by all means do recommend a specific book.  It would be pretty disingenuous to recommend learning short roping from “a book”, if you have neither done so yourself nor know anyone else who has done so.  

Every climber I know that is proficient at short roping was instructed by a guide.  

Karl Henize wrote:

A guide/instructor gives you feedback when you do something unsafe or inefficient. A book will never be able to watch you and provide feedback.  

Every climber I know that is proficient at short roping was instructed by a guide.  

YMMV. As I said, some people need more help than others. Short roping has been going on long before instruction from guides became common. I know many guides who like to think they are God's gift to climbers and that the only path to enlightenment is through them. I also know many who know better. If short roping confuses you, hire a guide.

Been climbing about 40 years and never hired a guide. I have climbed with a bunch of them and even short roped one once out of necessity..   Chouinard Climbing ice , Robbins advanced rock caft  and one other crazy sierra club book that recomended running through boulder fields...