Is Short Roping Only A Guide’s Technique?

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Take the east face of Buck mtn. A lot of people have died here. 

Lets say the guide weighs 150lbs Client A weighs 180lbs client B weighs 192lbs.  things are going well on the way up. You are 2/3rds of the way up the long snow slope and everyone is moveing well. no cause for anticipating a fall because every move is the same. Complacency and fatigue is a factor.  Client B falls pulling client A off in the process.  There is no anchor. The guide was looking uphill at the moment of the fall. What are the real world chances of the 150lb guide catching 372lbs of falling clients on that 55% face with no anchor? 

It’s generally inappropriate to short rope 55° snow.  

This is my main point about short roping: people fear and judge that which they don’t understand. (Case in point, the earlier comment about how ‘a slip doesn’t count as a save’) Instead of unilaterally condemning the technique as unsafe, recognize that it’s a dangerous tool not unlike a firearm, power tool, or vehicle.  It can absolutely be misused, but when properly employed by a skilled professional, does have the potential to reduce risk.  

Max Tepfer wrote:

It’s generally inappropriate to short rope 55° snow.  

which brings us back to my original point.... short roping uphill on steep snow is uncommon...

no rope, running belays or pitching it out are the common methods i am familiar with...

curt86iroc wrote:

which brings us back to my original point.... short roping uphill on steep snow is uncommon...

no rope, running belays or pitching it out are the common methods i am familiar with...

Another thing that could be considered on a short section of 55 degree snow would be a variation of short roping where the guide clips in close to the guest (6’ or so) and everyone uses 2 tools, and they climb with consistent tension in the rope. That way there are more points of contact and no slack can be built up because the guest cannot climb closer to the guide without hitting them.

I’m not saying this is appropriate for Buck mountain, but it is another example of a tool that adds security in  specific scenarios. Knowing when, where, and how to use these tools is crucial to them being effective for providing security.

Have a look at alpinerecreation.com/pdf/sa… and https://www.alpineskills.com/pdf_forms/ShortRoping.pdf.

Short roping can work on very moderate slopes if the guide can stop a slip before a fall happens. If a guest actually falls, then depending on the terrain and  the guide's body position at the moment of impact, it will be questionable to impossible to arrest a fall.

My take: a highly-skilled, well-practiced, and continually alert guide can make this work, and is also probably highly tuned to situations in which short-roping won't suffice.  Anyone else is probably fooling themselves and the party would be better off soloing without the rope (at least not everyone dies) or properly belaying (including quick braced belays and terrain belays while moving more or less continually) with it.  In my experience climbing with others of the same ability, once the party is roped together and moving together, there are just going to be "do not fall" times when everyone trusts everyone else.  That is almost never going to be a guiding situation, however.

I find it curious that no one has mentioned the boot-axe belay as a method for arresting partner falls on steep snow/neve.  I personally can attest to the value of learning/practicing to execute an "on-the-fly" boot-axe belay.  While I've had zero success practicing with the old "team arrest" taught by clubs & outdoor programs back in the seventies, I have had zero failures executing the boot-axe belay on the fly.  My record catch occurred on a "guided" (Outward Bound) climb of Oregon's North Sister in 1978.  Descending as a roped team of seven (two instructors five students), a student fell, pulled my co-instructor and four other students off, and I arrested their fall with a boot-axe belay executed on the fly.  Slope angle was over 30'.   I've also caught crevasse falls with this maneuver and highly recommend it over self-arrest for its load-carrying capacity.  with practice, execution becomes virtually instantaneous - just sink the axe to the hilt (or as deep as it will go) on the load side of the rope, and place a foot against the load side of the axe.  rope around the axe counterbalances your weight against your falling partner(s), and your foot keeps the axe from levering out.   practice this on varying slopes & surfaces, so you have an informed idea of how great a load you can catch in a given scenario.  --  and it should be  apparent that without lots of practice, its just another sharp tool in the hands of a dull user.

-Haireball

Curt Haire wrote:

I find it curious that no one has mentioned the boot-axe belay as a method for arresting partner falls on steep snow/neve.  I personally can attest to the value of learning/practicing to execute an "on-the-fly" boot-axe belay.  While I've had zero success practicing with the old "team arrest" taught by clubs & outdoor programs back in the seventies, I have had zero failures executing the boot-axe belay on the fly.  My record catch occurred on a "guided" (Outward Bound) climb of Oregon's North Sister in 1978.  Descending as a roped team of seven (two instructors five students), a student fell, pulled my co-instructor and four other students off, and I arrested their fall with a boot-axe belay executed on the fly.  Slope angle was over 30'.   I've also caught crevasse falls with this maneuver and highly recommend it over self-arrest for its load-carrying capacity.  with practice, execution becomes virtually instantaneous - just sink the axe to the hilt (or as deep as it will go) on the load side of the rope, and place a foot against the load side of the axe.  rope around the axe counterbalances your weight against your falling partner(s), and your foot keeps the axe from levering out.   practice this on varying slopes & surfaces, so you have an informed idea of how great a load you can catch in a given scenario.  --  and it should be  apparent that without lots of practice, its just another sharp tool in the hands of a dull user.

-Haireball

Haireball, that's a great story.

The classic boot-axe belay would constitute short-pitching, and this thread is *clearly* about short-roping. They are two completely different topics/skillsets.

(*although I'm not sure everyone understands the difference*)

rgold wrote:

Have a look at alpinerecreation.com/pdf/sa… and https://www.alpineskills.com/pdf_forms/ShortRoping.pdf.

Short roping can work on very moderate slopes if the guide can stop a slip before a fall happens. If a guest actually falls, then depending on the terrain and  the guide's body position at the moment of impact, it will be questionable to impossible to arrest a fall.

My take: a highly-skilled, well-practiced, and continually alert guide can make this work, and is also probably highly tuned to situations in which short-roping won't suffice.  Anyone else is probably fooling themselves and the party would be better off soloing without the rope (at least not everyone dies) or properly belaying (including quick braced belays and terrain belays while moving more or less continually) with it.  In my experience climbing with others of the same ability, once the party is roped together and moving together, there are just going to be "do not fall" times when everyone trusts everyone else.  That is almost never going to be a guiding situation, however.

Rgold, is pretty spot on.  Short roping is not a tool to arrest a fall, but rather a method to keep a slip from turning into a fall.

Additionally, most guides go through rigorous training to understand what they can and cannot hold given the terrain and environment.  This is No different from any other form of moving in the mountains where you select where and when to protect the terrain or establish belays.

I think expounding a bit on Alex's description could help with clarity.

"Short roping" as a term is a bit like "prussik." "Prussik" can mean a prussik loop tied into a prussik hitch specifically, but it could also mean a prussik loop tied into any of a number of other kinds of friction hitches. Similarly, "short roping" can refer specifically to moving while tied together on a shortened rope without intermediate protection of any kind (relying solely on the guide for security), but more generally, it can also mean everything between simul-soloing and long roping, which includes short roping but also short pitch (any intermediate protection, whether a belay stance, rope around  a horn, a piece of gear, the rope running over a ridge, etc.). On a spectrum where speed and security are inversely related, it would be something like: 

soloing (w/coaching, pacing, modeling, spotting) -- short roping -- simul climbing -- short pitching -- long roping (think glacier travel)  -- pitched climbing

If done incorrectly, short roping is quite dangerous. Short roping a 55 degree snow slope is a bad idea. On snow, the max slope angle for short roping should be somewhere +/-30 to 40 degrees depending on firmness. Conveniently, hazard starts at 30 degrees both for avalanche hazard as well as short rope hazard, so it makes it easier to train my brain for when my spidey sense should start tingling. (An exception to this might be a knife edge ridge with steep terrain on either side as the rope can be draped over the ridge to create a counterbalanced system as the party moves.) When the snow gets too steep, it's time to pitch it out. This also applies to long roping, where many recreational parties will continue using the same rope system in crevassed terrain that's far too steep.

On rock, the opportunities for protection of some kind--whether from horns/boulders, ridges, gear, or belay stances--often means plenty of time short pitching (or perhaps simul-climbing) with comparatively less time spent short roping. I spend the majority of my time moving through semi-technical rock short pitching, not short roping. Given their size and stature, some guides never short rope at all. 

On water ice, it is quite rare that I short rope as the mediu is very unforgiving. Short pitching or finding the snow is the way to go.

Recreational parties (and sometimes guided parties) often get this wrong. I've seen improperly tied coils, terrain belays on loose blocks, long roping up 50 degree slopes with crevasses beneath, etc. But that doesn't invalidate this group of techniques when correctly employed.

Its pretty obvious that I am not up to speed on what exactly short ropeing is and I have been lumping it in with any time you are roped up  on technical Terraine giving a client or clients   tension on a shortened  rope while you are moving without any protection in.   Even if you do it right it sounds suicidal to do with more than one client and i suspect its not nearly as safe as the working stiff thinks it is much of the time.  Interesting how we can get used to and accept working conditions that are not really safe. . There is a long and rich history of roped parties falling like giant bolo slings...  Not being a guide and doing this stuff just for fun we keep the rope in the pack unless someone needs it. then we give them a proper belay. Sometimes I run a super long pitch on moderate Terraine and we end up simo climbing but I put enough gear in when that is happening so that we always have enough in to at least keep the rope on the darn mountain.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Its pretty obvious that I am not up to speed on what exactly short ropeing is and I have been lumping it in with any time you are roped up  on technical Terraine giving a client or clients   tension on a shortened  rope while you are moving without any protection in.   

Yeah, as much as possible, there is something between us in some capacity, even if it's not a cam or a stopper.

Even if you do it right it sounds suicidal to do with more than one client

This is a great point that I forgot to mention. The security of a hand belay extends about as far as your wingspan. When working with 2 on the rope, it becomes that much more important to pay attention to rope tension and spacing of the clients. You end up using most of that wingspan distance to create the space between the two folks on the rope; if they're too close together they trip on each other, the upper climber steps on the lower one, etc. Consequently, with 2 clients, if we have to travel single file, the closest client is usually "in the pocket," as close as I can get them to me to ensure that the more distant client on the rope end doesn't get too far away. If we are traversing, then we can sometimes travel in "echelon" and "peloton" techniques (especially on snow). In those cases we are either all in a line with guide above client 1 above client 2, or with the clients one in front of the other and the guide above splitting the distance between them (basically a triangle configuration). In either case, since we are moving mostly laterally it's pretty straightforward to maintain appropriate tension on both clients. In snowy terrain, the guide also has the last-ditch option of the "flying guide," which just means diving on your ice axe and hoping your self-arrest skills and the physics are working in your favor. This is aided by tying a slip knot as a hand loop to control the rope tension. If the client(s) slips and the guide loses control, the slip knot unravels, providing precious time to fall on the ice axe. Keep in mind as well that all 3 members of the party can self arrest (though likely with varying degrees of success). 

All that said, if I'm not working, I'm soloing on the easy/moderate snow. No need to add to the risk when all partners are willing to accept our individual self-arrest skills as the tool for the hazard at hand.

 and i suspect its not nearly as safe as the working stiff thinks it is much of the time.  Interesting how we can get used to and accept working conditions that are not really safe. . 

Right you are. I've met with plenty of push back when speaking to other guides about the limits of short roping based on the available data. It's a good thing the limits of the system don't get tested very often as I suspect many guides would wind up quite surprised. I once read a brief anecdote that risk analysts gain confidence not by being right, but by the simple act of making decisions. That certainly describes my experience interacting with guides. I constantly attempt to hedge against that effect.

 I feel that we gain confidence by being lucky and familiarity.  We do something risky a few times and it works so we then seem to convince ourselves that its not risky. After we have repeated the same behavior enough times without consequence we no longer  consider it risky even though it absolutely is risky.  Sometimes our luck runs out an we pay the price.  I am out of work right now for doing something risky on a ladder that I have been doing that way and getting away with it for  42 years... 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

 I feel that we gain confidence by being lucky and familiarity.  We do something risky a few times and it works so we then seem to convince ourselves that its not risky. After we have repeated the same behavior enough times without consequence we no longer  consider it risky even though it absolutely is risky.  Sometimes our luck runs out an we pay the price.  I am out of work right now for doing something risky on a ladder that I have been doing that way and getting away with it for  42 years... 

Sorry to hear that! I hope you can get back at it soon! 

As for luck and familiarity, I think perhaps we're both pointing to the same kernel of truth. I certainly agree.