Is Short Roping Only A Guide’s Technique?

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Chouinard Climbing ice , Robbins advanced rock caft  and one other crazy sierra club book that recomended running through boulder fields... 

lol. I inherited an old book somehow. It was the first way that I heard that some at least once thought that was a thing.

Well, maybe it still is.  I hear those speed records on Grand Teton involve some unroped leaping about.

When I was about 10 or 11ish I had a really old  book for boys outdoor skills that had tons of cool hunting, fishing and trapping hacks in it. all with charcoal or perhaps pencil sketches. It had a  picture and somewhat vague  description of dulfersitz rappelling.   I naturally snagged some hemp rope out of the barn, scrambled up the slabbly ledge  that is just above the  horse pasture. tied the rope to a tree and proceded to rappel. naturally the old hemp rope was rotten and broke with a rather dull pop... i rolled down the cliff and under the electric fence into the pasture. somewhat bruised but mostly concerned with recovering the broken rope and hiding it behind all the other rope in the barn so as to not get a paddling...   Someday I need to go back and have a look at that slab and see if its legit? I scrambled all over it when I was a kid and remember it as being pretty technicle and  tall..... 

I Imagin it would be just about impossible to do the cathedral traverse CTC in 6hrs and change without being very good at running through boulders.... 

If you guys know your Teton history, then you will know about one of the most famous events in mountaineering history concerning roped climbers being knocked down a very famous peak (not in the Tetons) and saved by one man. Several climbers with a history in the Tetons took part in the climb. The son of one of the climbers is active on MP (well, still has an account).

^ Was that Pete Schoening on K2?

Terry E wrote:

^ Was that Pete Schoening on K2?

Bingo. Good old George Bell being the current MP user. Put both Bells in the unsung heroes thread, too, Amazing individuals professionally.

for every miraculous save there are probably 10 cases of one person  falls and the whole party takes a ride. Just happened yesterday on Shasta...  RIP. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

for every miraculous save there are probably 10 cases of one person  falls and the whole party takes a ride. Just happened yesterday on Shasta...  RIP. 

Were they short-roping on Shasta? Or are you just lumping that in with roped parties, in general? (because there's a difference)

FrankPS wrote:

Were they short-roping on Shasta? Or are you just lumping that in with roped parties, in general? (because there's a difference)

pretty sure they were ascending when the accident happened, so unlikely they were short roping...

curt86iroc wrote:

pretty sure they were ascending when the accident happened, so unlikely they were short roping...

Short-roping is used going uphill, also.

I have no idea if they were short-roping, though.

My understanding is that short roping is a guide providing a rope to clients weather going up or downhill without a running belay.   Obviously i could be wrong but my policy is if there is no protection the rope stays in the pack. I make exceptions to that rule when someone needs a belay and there is a decent stance but no gear . In that case I have been known to brace myself and provide a body belay. that INMOP is much different than traveling up or downhill in a rope of 3 with no protection and the assumption that your guide will save you if you fall. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

My understanding is that short roping is a guide providing a rope to clients weather going up or downhill without a running belay.   Obviously i could be wrong but my policy is if there is no protection the rope stays in the pack. I make exceptions to that rule when someone needs a belay and there is a decent stance but no gear . In that case I have been known to brace myself and provide a body belay. that INMOP is much different than traveling up or downhill in a rope of 3 with no protection and the assumption that your guide will save you if you fall. 

If you were a guide and had practiced short-roping for years, you would know its benefits. And it's limitations. (I'm not a guide, but as a client, have been short-roped many times).  

As you have no experience with it, maybe you should be a little more open-minded.  It is a safe and useful technique, when used properly.

FrankPS wrote:

Short-roping is used going uphill, also.

in my experience, short roping uphill is very uncommon.

curt86iroc wrote:

in my experience, short roping uphill is very uncommon.

You need more experience 

ac1 wrote:

You need more experience 

dont we all

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

for every miraculous save there are probably 10 cases of one person  falls and the whole party takes a ride.

This is 100% not true.  I typically have 2-3 catches per season where a client slip would've had a catastrophic outcome if I hadn't been short roping them.  What happened on Shasta is incredibly tragic and incredibly rare. People get hurt or killed on a near daily basis using proven climbing techniques and despite that fact we keep using them.  Mistakes happen and we should constantly strive to prevent them, but recognize that potential errors make up a significant part of the inherent risk in climbing.

Max. I am not a guide. I don't do much straight up mountainering. I do  a lot of ice climbing for 40 years much of which could be considered  mountaineering on small mountains.  as I said my rule is  no pro the rope stays in the pack. If I am with someone who needs a rope to move over steep snow or easy ice I belay them. Could I catch a slip by a lighter or equal weight person falling while short ropeing? probobly?. could I catch someone heavier than myself? maby not?. could I catch two people? doubtfull unless I was expecting them to fall in that spot. but even then maybe not?  I am glad I don't have your Job. I know pitching out a whole mountain is too slow but I still feel climbing tied together with no pro  is a shitty dangerous way to climb.   My job is also  dangerous and I try not to do the more dangerous aspects of my job when I don't have to.. 

I am a client, not a guide, and have been short-roped extensively. It's not just the guide that can stop a potential slip; it's the guide working with the terrain, like flipping the rope over a horn. Sometimes we're short roping, and the guide asks me to wait for a minute, drops some extra rope, climbs to a good stance and then belays me up. They might place a piece of protection now and then, do a hip belay, or transition into pitched climbing. Having the rope available creates a lot of options in the right terrain. 

But I do think it's one of the most difficult skills to acquire, and one must be keenly aware of its limitations. 

Bb Cc wrote:

No slip is not a save.

I have read several articles in AAJ that describe the futility of rope-ing up with out running belays on steep icy terrain.

In the accident reports I have seen, these folks are usually doing something more akin to simul climbing (with no pro) than short roping. Short roping is just that, a very short (>10')  length of rope held in the hands of the guide and clipped to both client and guide. The hands of the guide keep light tension on the rope so that the slightest slip of the client is braced immediately by the rope held by the guide. If the terrain (such as "steep" ice, or sloping rock) is not positive or easily used as a brace by the legs of the guide then the next step is to employ short pitching (often including the placement of protection or anchors) rather than just short roping. The rope length of a short pitch may be around 30'. The further apart the guide and client, the more robust the belay must become. 

It is necessary to understand the limitations of one's self and the terrain involved when choosing the technique to employ. Personally, I use short roping primarily on 2nd and 3rd class terrain and short pitching on less secure 3rd and 4th class terrain. 

The question comes up all the time, why not just put away the rope. And the answer I'll give is that soloing is typically the opposite of what the client is paying for. They are paying for security. That rope is giving them the confidence to move where they would otherwise be too nervous. When a client slips on 3rd class, they usually land on their butt on the ground. My rope is simply keeping them from going any further. When a client slips on 4th class, I've got a stance/anchor that I'm using to belay. I'm often taking advantage of the terrain to brace a hip belay against, using a horn to wrap the rope around for a terrain belay, or lastly, placing protection as part of an anchor. 

It's more an art than a science, but with enough practice, it becomes very fun, and a solid way to move through the mountains together. 

If someone gets to the same level of experience as the guide, and the guide is climbing for fun and not for work, then soloing comes back on the table as a potential option. Soloing with clients is reserved for very high-end, vetted guests in appropriate terrain and only if required for the speed of the objective.

Is short-roping only a guide's technique? -- no, but like any complex skill, it must be learned from a knowledgeable mentor, and practiced on terrain where a mistake won't kill or cripple you.  A very skilled small person can safely shortrope a larger person, using terrain features for anchorage.  Mr. Fleming's description of an AMGA instructor demonstrating the use of shortroping to protect BOTH the guide and the client makes the proper point.  In my guiding days (80s) I routinely placed a nut or other protection where no terrain feature presented to anchor the rope.  This many years later, I barely distinguish between "shortroping" and "simulclimbing", moving seamlessly between two related skillsets, often even adding the "one-move-belay" when wanted.  I believe its a skill well worth mastering, as it allows a team to quickly cover ground without hurrying, by eliminating the "down time" cost of a the usual full pitch formal belay.

that said, I must admit that mastery seems rare.  I've seen professional guides I would not have cared to tie to, and I've been known to unrope from partners who didn't seem to grasp the gravity (har-har)) of what we were doing.  Unless everybody's on the same page, unroping is likely safer.  Mr Goldsmith is absolutely correct that climbing roped without a belay is often no more than a suicide pact.  I don't shortrope/simulclimb where I cannot catch a real fall (not just a slip or momentary loss of balance), nor do place myself in the position where I would not be caught if I fell.  Even for a guide, the rope is to protect ALL climbers attached.

-Haireball

Take the east face of Buck mtn. A lot of people have died here. 

Lets say the guide weighs 150lbs Client A weighs 180lbs client B weighs 192lbs.  things are going well on the way up. You are 2/3rds of the way up the long snow slope and everyone is moveing well. no cause for anticipating a fall because every move is the same. Complacency and fatigue is a factor.  Client B falls pulling client A off in the process.  There is no anchor. The guide was looking uphill at the moment of the fall. What are the real world chances of the 150lb guide catching 372lbs of falling clients on that 55% face with no anchor?