Is the world's best climber a dodgy belayer? ADAM!!!
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soft crux wrote: Why, in that case it’s Alex Megos. He sent a 35 (a 35!) in Australia! |
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Noel Z wrote: Magnus is also not falling to the ground… The belayer is leaning back, the climber is hanging, cam is engaged, nobody is going anywhere. Of course, if the climber were to unweigh the rope unannounced… things could change. But he is hanging in a spot where the belayer can see exactly what he is doing, and there isn’t much chance of miscommunication. I’m not saying that this should be the way to do things. It takes absolutely no effort for belayer to hang back like this, and ALSO keep a hand lightly on the brake. If the climber is hanging for a while, the belayer can tie a backup knot, etc. This is what I would do, and what I would like my belayer to do. But… we accept that different people have different risk tolerance. The climber can see what the belayer is doing. The climber is not objecting. The two of them consider this safe-enough. I don’t like it, but I’m neither the climber, nor the belayer in this photo. I also happen to not like free soloing. But I accept that others do it. |
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Lena chita wrote: i.e. dodgy |
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I'm willing to bet that a lot of people jumping to Ondra's defense probably belay incorrectly with the Grigri on a regular basis. It is super common so it's not like any of us should be surprised to see a pro doing it - I'd go so far as to say that most or close to half of people that I encounter belay incorrectly with a Grigri. That doesn't make it okay - I know of two instances where a climber was dropped by an experienced climber using the classic defeat the cam with a full wrap of the hand technique. In both cases the belayer never took any responsibility and went around talking about how sometimes the Grigri just doesn't lock up and how they don't trust it anymore. In both cases the injuries sustained were relatively minor (although one guy's back will probably never be the same) so they just don't get talked about - which is part of the reason so many in this thread are so quick to claim that these kinds of accidents don't happen. I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of near misses and even accidents due to this belay technique that we just don't hear about. The new technique with the index finger under the side lip works great and is very easy to learn. Only a little experimentation will show you just how difficult it would be to defeat the cam during a fall scenario using the correct technique. A little experimentation will also show you how easy it is to defeat the cam using the old school full hand wrap technique. Using and/or defending the old technique makes you look lazy, entitled, or stupid - so cut the shit. By the way, I'm left handed and I have no issues belaying using the recommended technique. A little patience + practice will go a long way - when it's someone else's life on the other end of the line you can either figure it out or stop belaying. |
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Lena chita wrote: Big difference. Free soloing is a conscious decision, those climbers think about the risk beforehand (even if they do it haphazardly). This dodgy Grigri technique is just laziness, naivety, incompetence, ignorance. |
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The grigri doesn't need a hand on the brake to properly lock. Just like a figure of 8 doesn't need a backup. Any instances where a (properly tied) figure of 8 ever failed? Any instances where a grigri (without the cam being depressed) didn't lock properly? I personally use the grigri per manufacturers recommendation, always with a hand on the brake, but the truth is it will always lock even without a hand on the brake. Ondra has more belay experience than most here on MP, he's not a dodgy belayer! |
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David Miles wrote: Wrong. In certain scenarios, it actually does. Read the entire thread. You look like you don't know what you're talking about here because you have not.
Yeah, it does. Your hand on the brake. Go ahead and fall on just a rope in a Fig 8 and see what happens.
No, but that's the point. Devices PROPERLY used don't fail, just like knots PROPERLY tied don't come loose. I feel like this should be obvious, but here I am pointing it out.
Yes- again, watch the vids posted in this thread where real live experiments were conducted specifically to answer your question.
That is not the truth, and if you think it is, you're misinformed.
Seriously doubt that pal. You don't get to the level he's at by belaying people all the time, you get there by climbing and having people belay you all the time. I 100% have more belaying under my belt than Adam Ondra, and I'm fucking way better at it. Of course, I'd rather have his prowess as a climber rather than MY prowess as a belayer, but I digress.
He's not exactly great at it either. He's more dodgy than solid for sure, but he doesn't care, the people he belays don't care, just the smarmy dickwads like me that like to call him out on it, and the leg-humping fan boys that would totally cup his sack immediately after taking a long fall with a hard catch on his belay. |
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A grigri that is completely hands off and in a position that it can move freely (i.e. clipped into an anchor and not in a position it could snag against the rock) will catch a fall. Otherwise it would be no better than a tube device. Aid climbers on hours-long pitches routinely trust grigris that are anchored where the belayer is hands off (eating, sleeping, taking a dump, whatever...) Where the grigri can fail is when the belayer interferes with it's normal operation, such as holding onto the climber end of the rope, or using force opposing the cam. Bad technique is far worse than no technique. You shouldn't use a grigri completely hands off, but you could. |
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Fort aid work like that at least the belayer can tie a stopper knot 10 or 20 feet down the rope, when going hands free to roll a joint or whatever. |
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soft crux wrote: IF, big IF, the rope is moving slowly through the grigri, it won't engage until something changes. A fast enough fall will be caught, and once engaged, a grigri doesn't disengage, again, until something changes. A small point, but it could matter in unusual circumstances, superlight climbers, for example, or a really strong dude holding only the climber strand could override the cam. You have to be strong enough to hold the whole fall weight/force with one arm though, and it's pretty hard to do even when you're ready for it and locked off. With any brake side going at all, the grigri locks. We tried sabotaging the grigri in the gym, every way we could think of, with safety backups. Give it a try and find out how easy (or difficult) it is to mess up. That hand on the brake strand can be remarkably minimal, but it needs to be there, or the equivalent. Same with a backup of some sort if you're mucking around hands free regularly. When people expect a Grigri to catch totally hands free? They are also relying on the weight of the rope under the device being a marginal brake hand, and the climber side moving fast enough to engage the cam. Put the belayer rope end over your shoulder, close to the end of the rope (no brake side weight), grigri below as usual, and have your climber weight the rope. Oops.... Would that ever happen? Probably not. But I've definitely seen people holding up the brake strand parallel with the climber strand. YGD? Dunno....but? Truly knowing how the foolproof device can be failed is a good thing, imo. Besides, it's super fun, and a great use of a gym (and a staffer) to do nutsy things, safely! Honestly, it boosted my confidence, too, seeing how idiotproof the devices (plural, I've done this sort of thing with 3 different ones, so far) can be.....and how little it takes to override an idiot moment, back to a nonevent. Best, Helen |
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Cherokee Nunes wrote: Nah, being tied into the other end is good enough. |
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Old lady H wrote: True, it might not engage if you are on the moon and the climber falls. |
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I was dropped by an old climbing partner. He was using an ATC at the time, but also belayed me from time to time with a GriGri. Before the accident he literally had every bad habit possible. After the accident every excuse at the ready. Looking cavalier was cool then and still does. I've since seen him at the crag, still shit belaying. Bad belaying is the worst thing about climbing. How does a climber transition from only climbing routes they can onsighting to redpointing and feeling safe to fall? Don't ever let go the brake strand. Reasons: The GriGri's maker, Petzl, says not too and they know more than you. It's neither CE certified nor EN tested as a positioning device (EN 795/B) for hangdogging. A dynamic rope want's to return to its original length, so if the rope is suddenly unweighted by a hangdogging leader and immediately re-weighted, the rope can whizz through. This effect increases as more rope is in the system. The GriGri's cam spring works to allow the rope through, not to stop it. Positing devices have no springs (GriGri vs Grillon). If you need to let go, then add a backup slip knot. Petzl's demonstration https://youtu.be/V9hsWjA3SmU?t=318 Dynamic rope elasticity demonstrated https://youtu.be/HJ9qZSeGXh0?t=469 Belay device vs positioning device https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsjc7fbPojE Belay fail |
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How about the insta story of Honnold belaying his wife and mother of his child with a huuuuuuuge U of slack out? |
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Frank Stein wrote: Update: I think Tom O'Halloran's Hump of trouble is a 36. |
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Caj Corrigan wrote: Blackheath dad bod superiority confirmed Speaking of the Blue Mountains, a certain Australian climbing legend discovered another GriGri failure mode recently. One of their old ropes was a bit shredded. Got a new rope, but it also got really fuzzy really quickly. Posted a rant about how equipment quality is crap these days, it's all made in china and you can't buy good hard wearing ropes any more. Finally, while developing a new route with another local climber (the victim), they're jugging up to the clifftop at the end of the day, and the sheath strips while the victim is on rope, and several core strands cut. Victim shits themselves but manages to deal with the damaged rope and gingerly finishes the ascent. The victim inspects all the gear and discovers the perpetrator's GriGri, an ancient device worn from decades of climbing and hundreds of new routes, has the edge of the cam sharpened to a razor's edge. It's been cutting every rope put in it. Victim unleashed a raging tirade at the perpetrator. |
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Tzilla Rapdrilla wrote: Rereading this thread. This is so true. In fact in Tom O'halloran's videos, including the one about his grade 36 route, he's getting dodgy old school belays from half the top climbers in Australia. I reckon firstly, a lot of really good climbers have of course been climbing for decades (even if they're young, they started incredibly young) and learned the old method directly in the 90s or 2000s. Others had parents who were really good climbers and probably learned the 90s GriGri belay from them. Secondly, the lack of inhibition and insane focus that helps them go all out and send 'er, also releases you from worrying about wordly cares like reading the instruction manual, or learning to climb from a qualified guide, or posting on MP or theCrag. They made up for it by going climbing all the time, just a totally unbelievable amount of their life at the crag. |
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Belay fail Aside from the "bad technique": left hand continuously on the cam while the climber moves, using the brake hand above the Grigri to feed out rope, maybe too much slack for moves on the second bolt (it does seem like the belayer keeps his hand pressed down on the cam all the way to when the climber decks), the way this kid almost instinctively grabs the rope above the Grigri to try and stop the plunge, I get the feeling he's never caught a fall before in his life. A perfect storm of errors. |