Crag etiquette and small rant.

JCM wrote:

I'm just responding to what the OP described -the person they encountered kept the rope up her whole session (however long that was - presumably much of the climbing day) and then s discouraged OP from trying it again. That's not cool.

I agree that everyone deserves a turn on the route, and the order of the queue to take a turn is generally first come first served. But once you take your turn you should be expected to step aside and allow the next person an unobstructed turn. Leaving a rope up through much of the climbing day (the exact situation being discussed here) does not meet this standard.

It's interesting that you read it that way. What I heard is that the OP was annoyed that someone who was struggling on the route was working it when he wanted to climb it. He didn't say anything about her leaving the rope up, unused, while she was resting or doing other things. It sounded like he approached while she was on it, then she let him and his buddy take a turn, and then she returned to working the route, which annoyed him because he didn't feel she had the right to do since she wasn't going for a send. He specifically asked whether a person who could send would have precedence over someone who couldn't, which is a loud and clear NO.

ETA - He also didn't say that SHE deterred him from climbing it again. He said "The situation deterred me from wanting to try again for the redpoint because I didn't want to deal with all the shenanigans again." 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I mean it is dependent on the area so whatever seems reasonable but being on a sport climb for an hour versus two 30 minute chucks doesn't honestly make that much sense. First, if you need an hour to stare at a climb your probably not going to red point it (especially if typical redpoint time is less than 3 minutes), in fact I don't think I have ever seen someone stare at a climb for an hour get even close to redpointing in this scenario. Second trying the same move for an hour is just harder than giving yourself a rest and coming back and trying it again. Third, most these people are not elite sport climbers. Pragmatically if you are trying to memorize something it is easier to do it in chunks. 

 I am not talking about ceuse (which an hour is reasonable), more like clear creek (which would be kinda horrifying if someone took an hour on an average climb there thinking of dudes diherdal?). Can you honestly say you taking an hour on an average clear creek climb is more effective for redpointing than two 30 minute goes? 

Are you familiar with the gish gallop?

From Wikipedia: "The Gish gallop is a rhetorical technique in which a debater attempts to overwhelm an opponent by excessive number of arguments, without regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments."

That's how I feel reading many of your posts, especially with the numbered arguments.

I honestly don't know where to start refuting you point by point, especially when you change stances from "anything more than 20 minutes is detrimental" to "multiple 30 minute burns are good." Except to repeat that I think that most, if not all, high level climbers will often spend extended periods on a climb. Which I consider to be strong evidence that it's an effective practice when climbing at your limit. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I mean it is dependent on the area so whatever seems reasonable but being on a sport climb for an hour versus two 30 minute chucks doesn't honestly make that much sense. First, if you need an hour to stare at a climb your probably not going to red point it (especially if typical redpoint time is less than 3 minutes), in fact I don't think I have ever seen someone stare at a climb for an hour get even close to redpointing in this scenario. Second trying the same move for an hour is just harder than giving yourself a rest and coming back and trying it again. Third, most these people are not elite sport climbers. Pragmatically if you are trying to memorize something it is easier to do it in chunks. 

 I am not talking about ceuse (which an hour is reasonable), more like clear creek (which would be kinda horrifying if someone took an hour on an average climb there thinking of dudes diherdal?). Can you honestly say you taking an hour on an average clear creek climb is more effective for redpointing than two 30 minute goes? 

Where did mike h say anything about staring at a route for an hour?

Personally, the first or second beta burn of a new project for me usually takes between 45 minutes and an hour. There's nothing wrong with swinging around on a crux for a while trying to figure out the best way to do it. In fact, I would say it's one of my favorite parts of redpointing--no pressure, just thinking creatively about how to do hard moves. I would NEVER begrudge someone that experience, even on a weekend at a crowded crag. (People gotta work!)

But, a few things about etiquette when working climbs at one's limit: 

1) Make sure you communicate your intentions and realistic expectations to others at the crag. The other day, I walked up to a climb right around the same time as someone else. She got there first, and I asked what their plans were. She was gonna work out beta (actually a harder variation that shares the first half, but it's the same difference). I was going for the redpoint burn. She very kindly asked if I was gonna be messing around or was really going for it. I said I was gonna try to send, and she let me go first. That was super kind of her. I didn't take too long (although, I did camp out at the rest for about 5 minutes--sorry!). And then she got to swing around on her hard crux to her heart's content, without me sitting there waiting for her. Win/win! Maybe the person who got there first could claim some sort of rights, but it's not the most polite way to share the crag.

2) Generally, a person has the same right to top rope a climb as someone does to lead it--let's not be elitist here at the ol' single pitch sport crag. But if I'm in a bigger group that's all getting on a TR (and usually, we have more than one route up), I'll always offer to let someone cut in and climb it without having to wait for all of us, especially if they are just going to lead it quickly. If we're not done TRing it, I'll ask them to either use our rope and set the TR back up with it, or tag our rope up after they climb it. (As someone earlier said, if you're at the anchors of a single pitch route, there is no reason you can't get someone else's rope set up through a TR anchor up there somehow--I'm actually a big fan of the tape splice!)

3) Don't be mean to me when I want to TR all day at the Creek...

These are just my opinions. The most important thing is to be friendly and humble and communicate with the other people at the crag. I've literally never had a problem when I've tried to communicate my plans and work out a solution that works for everyone.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote: Edit: Marc if your not getting up a climb in an hour, wouldn't staring be how you describe hang dogging and looking at the climb.

No, cause you’re doing a lot more than just staring. 

MP Feature Request: Please add "lead a route without difficulty but no send" as an option on ticklists.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Todd would smile and offer to belay and tell you what an awesome job you are doing and keep trying.  If you offered to pull your rope so he could have the route he would say "nonsense, there are plenty of other routes for me to do"

+1000

We should all be so generous with each other. #goals

That does seem somewhat unusual. Every time i have encountered this kind of scenario, the person who wanted to have their rope set up as toprope had offered to let me climb on their rope, and expressed profuse thanks for setting up the TR for them.

I have come across groups that had TR already on, and didn’t want the rope pulled. But even in that case, as soon as I said that I could just climb on their rope and put it back up for them, they said yes.

But I usually don’t ask to climb a route that has a group TRing it. If there are other things to climb, I’d rather do that, and stay away.

JCM wrote:

 I'm all for working routes that are hard for you, and using all the tricks. Stick clips, toproping, etc. I certainly do this. But you have to be cognizant of your impact on others. If no one is waiting, sure, take all day.  But if several people are waiting for the route I will keep each working burn shorter to be considerate. Maybe spend 15-20 minutes on a portion of the route, then give someone else a turn, and work the rest next go.

One thing we're missing from the OP: why did it have to be that route on that day when there was another party on it?

 Again, it's all about being reasonable. Wanting to leave a TR up all day on a popular sport climb? That's completely unreasonable 

You're the one who keeps bringing up "all day" when a time frame was never mentioned.

If you want to work a route and have to clip it up bolt to bolt just to get a toprope set up, of course you should let other parties on the route if they can redpoint it. Besides, watching them could help  you in your attempt. 

My etiquette is the person who gets there first, gets the route for as long as they want it and I find something else to climb. 

If I see someone on a route I wanted to do I go to another route.  If routes are routinely crowded I’m obviously climbing at the wrong area and find less crowded crags, they do exist.  

Mike I’m still waiting for a response…also if doing what good climbers do shouldnt we ask people for their best ticks all time to make sure we can prioritize who is a good enough climber to opine on this subject?

Marc801 Cwrote:

No, cause you’re doing a lot more than just staring. 

Call it whatever you want, beta analysis, climbing technique, doesn’t really matter.

If you get on a route make it up 60% of it in 25 minutes then spend the next 35 min desperately trying the crux functionally often you would be better served lowering off after the first 30-35.

 If it took you 25min to get up to the crux you better really wanna dial the bottom half in your second thirty minute go. Then you will also maybe have seen someone do the crux, got beta or at the very least gave yourself a rest. Your partner will be happier, the people at the crag will be happier, the only thing that might be injured is the ego you left on the climb.

As for everyone else, it is poor etiquette to have no etiquette. If people at the crag wanna do the climb your on maybe chat with them? 

For some reason climbing has this made up rule where you can spend 2 hours on a single pitch climb. This is unacceptable in multi pitch, bouldering, even ice climbing if there are few flows, especially gym climbing (many gyms even have signs about this). It’s unacceptable at your local track to walk .5mph in lane one all day cause you got there first. It’s unacceptable in many aspects of life to stop a lane of traffic because you were there first. The whole point of etiquette is to evolve past the childish belief of finders keepers losers weepers.

Obviously adjust the amount of time to whatever is the standard at your crag.

L Kapwrote:

Person who is there first has claim to the climb until they are done. Most people will be open to figuring out how to take turns or share if approached politely, but they are not obligated to. You are within your rights to think they are rude, but not to kick them off their climb before they are done or horn in against their wishes. I agree that hogging a line literally all day when other folks have shown interest is really bad etiquette.

This is ironic considering the (((dumpsterfire))) thread you started last year.

Arm wrestling at the base, whoever is stronger gets to climb. 

In the wild animals often use various methods such as chest-pounding or hooting to establish dominance, I find a firm grip good table and intense eye contact establish the dominant male.

Hoping to have no problem not sending this weekend!

FYI if your buddy wanted to lead it, after lowering off, tape their rope end to end with yours and pull it through that way. 

Have used this trick a few times now and it has been handy. Shout-out to Austin D for showing it to me.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

This is ironic considering the (((dumpsterfire))) thread you started last year.

I guess you’re targeting the bit about “sharing”.

Free your mind, Daniel, and the rest will follow. ©  Seeing only in black and white is an (((avoidable))) state of the mind.

I find sharing the crag with other people to be fun most of the time, sharing, socializing, spraying, its all good, people are strange. The three strike policy is usually the go-to when others are waiting but if nobody is waiting it could turn into a hundred and 3 strikes.